Hello!

62 y/old Male from UK here. I previously posted on the SA forum, so you can read about my journey through the early days of cessation and withdrawal there also if you wish.

Prior to 2022 I had been dancing a reluctant jig with SSRIs for over thirty years (see my signature). I have continued to battle my naturally low mood and and despair during this time, but with little relief – and certainly not from the SSRIs.

I'm now four years into a complete cessation from any SSRIs/SNRIs. Like many others, I have been through the mill of WD as my brain and body struggles to re-establish homeostasis. The immediate fall-out of cessation included all the usual somatic symptoms: Brains zaps, stomach upsets, disturbance of balance, restless legs, elevated 'fight-or-flight' response – and most profoundly, a complete breakdown in sleep patterns. Later on came the mind stuff: Anxiety, panic, despair, anhedonia, depersonalisation.

Over the years these symptoms' occurrence/severity have followed the familiar non-linear patterns we describe as 'Waves and Windows'. All this bodily & mental-churn has negatively impacted my career; personal life; and relationship.

However, looking back over the last four years I can start to see a gradual upward trajectory, toward more stability. To mix metaphors: light at the end of the tunnel as the windows stay open for longer! ;) Many of the somatic WD symptoms have now gone, and I am now left with a more stubborn 'big-three' that I feel may require more years healing. For me these are: Sleep disorders, anhedonia, and surges of cortisol/Fight or Flight responses.

It's worth noting that I am still very sensitive to certain supplements that can disrupt my balance. For me these are in particular: Magnesium, B-Vitamins, Ashwaganda. Melatonin (1mg nightly); Omega3 fish oil; and D3, are about the only supplements that I can tolerate without fallout.

But I'm still here – continuing the journey wherever it takes me – and (on the good days) still believe I made the right decision to stop taking these wretched pills over four years ago.

Many thanks to those that are continuing Adele Framer's, and others fine work – here at AHRF. Sad that so many people in this world are going to continue to require help in this way, while the industries responsible pass by on the other side of the road.

Welcome to the forum!

I've linked your previous thread on SA here so that there's some continuity in your story:

AGlassDarkly: hello fellow travellers! - Introductions and updates - Surviving Antidepressants

 

This is a volunteer-run, community forum aimed at helping those who are tapering and/or experiencing difficulties with psychiatric medications and withdrawal syndrome. We are not medical professionals and cannot offer medical advice. We simply offer support and opinions which you could use as talking points with a medical provider knowledgeable in withdrawing off psychiatric medications.

 

Please familiarise yourself with the forum rules and the disclaimer located here: Guidelines

 

Thank you for updating your signature.

I'm so sorry to read about the tough time you've had recently you will find plenty of support here for sure.

 

In the mean time this is what I would do if I were you:

 

-Stay Hydrated 

 

-Eat a good clean whole food diet, avoiding processed foods and sugars.

 

-Stay away from caffeine, alcohol and antihistamines and any other psychoactive substances.

 

Supplements are to be avoided initially, as they often irritate our nervous systems. Try to get your nutrition through food.

 

Down the line, you may wish to introduce Fish Oil and Magnesium. Those who can tolerate them have found them calming to the nervous system. Be careful try one at a time and start low and see how you get on should you choose to try them.

 

A daily walk is very important as much as you can manage, if you can manage it. Gets you your fresh air and Vitamin D does wonders for your mind!

I realise that a considerable amount of the text above will be pretty redundant for you, given how long you've been in this, but it's our standard intro advice so I'll keep it in this repsonse.

I'm sorry to hear that you're still experiencing symptoms this far out. I've also been in this for quite some time, but not quite as long as you have (I'm 1 year behind). Sleep is a very stubborn issue for me as well.

How would you describe the windows? Do you experience improvements in the "big three" you mentioned?

7 hours ago, AGlassDarkly said:

Many thanks to those that are continuing Adele Framer's, and others fine work – here at AHRF. Sad that so many people in this world are going to continue to require help in this way, while the industries responsible pass by on the other side of the road.

 

Thank you for saying that, and yes, it's a scandal.

You are very welcome here and I hope you find the site supportive.

Welcome to the forum @AGlassDarkly glad you found us. I hope as time passes you continue to recover, I think you will. If you have not yet, consider reporting your injury using the yellow card service in my signature below. Chippy

22 hours ago, Luke said:

How would you describe the windows? Do you experience improvements in the "big three" you mentioned?

@Luke Thank you for the warm welcome and good practical advice – always useful no matter how far down the road we find ourselves.

I suppose I'd describe my windows as simply a discernible relief (however slight) from the intrusions and pressures of a wave; it's all relative really. And it's often only recognisable as either – when in contrast to the other; the edges being so blurred.

As for my 'big-three': Sleep has seen the most improvement. I've also learned to worry less about exactly how many hours I may/may not sleep – the worry just does not help, and can even fan the flames!

The flight-or-flight/cortisol surge issue seems to come and go now and is noticably better than a year ago. I literally get an audible warning when I'm about to head into problems in the form of tinnitus! – which seems to appear before a surge (I suspect that this may be the Wellbutrin damage at fault here).

The least improvement has been in the emotional numbing/anhedonia. In a way it's the hardest to tackle as there's not much one can do practically if one doesn't feel the same response to once pleasurable stimuli, expect merely to accept – and wait it out. Two out of three isn't bad going anyway!

PS Frustratingly, I found that Ashwaganda seemed to be really effective at calming down the cortisol surges, but after three weeks of taking it my mood began to plummet very low. I did some more research, stopped taking it, and within days my mood came back up again. But then the cortisol surges reappeared! Apparently this is a known side effect of it, if one is sensitive to such things. Ah well. Lesson learned again. :)

I see, thank you for responding.

Personally, I'd avoid ashwaganda in withdrawal, it is psychoactive and acts on neurotransmitters. The fact that it affects your symptoms is a bit of a telltale that it has a chance of interfering with returning to homeostasis, I think.

1 hour ago, AGlassDarkly said:

then the cortisol surges reappeared!

Welcome to the forum @AGlassDarkly

I have found that Vitamin C really helps me with the morning cortisol issue. I take an Ester C form and 500 mg a day. Like all supplements start low and increase carefully if you decide to try it. Apparently our adrenal glands need Vitamin C and we burn through it quickly under stress. Vitamin C helps regulate cortisol.

@LostinCanada Thank you for the welcome – and the suggestion about Vit C. I didn't know that! 😮 Will try out and report back. Many thanks.

@Luke Ashwaganda is I read believed to act upon the GABA receptors – an inhibitory neurotransmitter, and also the HPA axis – thus affecting the adrenal/cortisol response. Unfortunately it appears to slam the brakes on both at the same time, which might explain why it helps with overactive stress responses. But it also appear to clamp down on emotional responses! Is there any such thing as a magic pill? I think not.

Our use of the very word 'withdrawal' got me thinking, and maybe opens up a wider debate:

When on our respective journeys (after cessation) do we consider ourselves still in withdrawal? There's even a term for defining a certain point as post-withdrawal and a matching syndrome: PWS!

Labels can be useful – but let's not forget that many of us are in this mess to start with because we allowed ourselves to be categorised and labelled – and medicated accordingly.

Like the grief journey, does there come a time when it may be counterproductive to hang onto these labels? thus allowing ourselves to rejoin the rest of humanity and dare I say it, describe ourselves as feeling just 'ok' again.

@AGlassDarkly I thought that the "P" more commonly referred to "protracted" withdrawal syndrome ie. withdrawal symptoms that are protracted rather than the short couple of weeks that medicine thinks are typical.

Regardless of the label, or what you wish to call what you are experiencing now, many people who have been significantly harmed by these drugs, both whilst taking them and for a long time afterwards are sensitive to other substances, and particularly we see this with substances that are psychoactive or that act on any of the systems that these drugs did.

Setting aside the name of the harm done to you, me and everyone else on this forum by these drugs, the fact remains that I have seen multiple people compound this harm by taking such substances, including ashwaganda specifically.

I use the label because that's one that most people use and can understand. I'm not sure how we'd choose a better name given that scientific understanding of the lasting harm post-cessation that these drugs can do is effectively non-existent. How do we name something whose nature we don't understand?

Regardless of the label, I wanted to warn you of the above.

@Luke Thanks for the 'P' correction! Please feel free to edit my post to reflect this.

In my own case I have definitely become sensitised to all manner of supplements – and are still at that point four years and more after cessation.

Thanks for your concern and warning about Ashwaganda. It's clearly a powerful substance. Having tested it personally – I would say that it was evidently having a really negative impact on my mood. Though to be fair to the substance, it was having a noticeably positive effect on calming my early morning cortisol surges! We live and learn.

Re labels. I think my point was that whilst being a handy (necessary?) shortcut, labels can become burdensome – or at worst a weapon wielded by wrongly informed medical professionals used to control and define us.

The dilemma of the name we give to things whose nature we don't fully understand is part of a debate that goes much deeper – possibly to the heart of mental illness itself.

I've often heard it said that mental 'illness' may well be the body's perfectly sane reaction to existing in an insane world.

Edited September 30Sep 30 by AGlassDarkly
formatting, clarity

9 hours ago, AGlassDarkly said:

In my own case I have definitely become sensitised to all manner of supplements – and are still at that point four years and more after cessation.

Thanks for your concern and warning about Ashwaganda. It's clearly a powerful substance. Having tested it personally – I would say that it was evidently having a really negative impact on my mood. Though to be fair to the substance, it was having a noticeably positive effect on calming my early morning cortisol surges! We live and learn.

My concern would also be that even if it seemed to provide symptom relief, that it may then be at the cost of longer term returning to your pre-drug baseline, but it's impossible to say.

In any case, it does not seem to have caused you a significant setback, which is good- it has done for some unfortunate others.

9 hours ago, AGlassDarkly said:

Re labels. I think my point was that whilst being a handy (necessary?) shortcut, labels can become burdensome – or at worst a weapon wielded by wrongly informed medical professionals used to control and define us.

The dilemma of the name we give to things whose nature we don't fully understand is part of a debate that goes much deeper – possibly to the heart of mental illness itself.

I've often heard it said that mental 'illness' may well be the body's perfectly sane reaction to existing in an insane world.

I totally agree that many labels in mental health treatment can be unproductive, and I have major issues with how they're created and administered in the first place.

That said, for us naming things is unavoidable. People come to forums such as this trying to get clear information about what has or is happening to them. There are many common patterns, outcomes and symptoms between those harmed by these drugs, which we try to convey to people. To be able to give people this information, we must use commonly understood names for them.

As far as I am aware, none of the terms used in the information provided by this forum in informational posts nor commonly discussed by staff are terms we have invented- all have come from decades' worth of other/previous support groups discussing these topics.

We didn't/don't choose these labels, but we must either use them or invent our own which is more problematic.