9 hours ago, Talltreescoldseas said:

Yeah don’t we all sometimes.

It definitely brought it back. Ugh. Seemingly randomly.

Appreciate it. Most people think i’m probably pushing it a bit far but I’ve been working to try to isolate some gene sequences that make us more or less able to recover quickly.

Below this can be considered speculation so read on with a heaping tablespoon of salt but dont shit on it if it doesnt click everything together right now, it’s in progress.

I think i’ve seen three broadly different types of withdrawals/adverse reactions and recoveries. I can get into it a bit but it appears there are a few different things that can be switched on or off depending on what the reaction was. Some people are in the pool that has receptors that were habituated to the presence of the drug and when they come down slowly they get the usual withdrawal symptoms and return to baseline over time. Best case group. More linear trajectory, only factor is time and how well your body methylates. Fish oil, magnesium, methylfolate (active b9) and vitamin c (if that’s tolerable) appear to be the best combo to encourage the expression of more receptors.

The second cohort are the neurosteroid cohort, which is where you start seeing a little longer or weirder PAWS and etc. Neurosteroid production is modulated by a whole host of other genes and these are more complicated than just say “BDNF and MTHFR” genes. They generally cause add on effects or stack effects as serotonin can increase the production and release of allopregnenalone for instance. And then Allopregnenalone increases GABA and serotonin release which can lower cortisol and increase the synthesis of more allo. So this cohort might be dealing with down regulated receptors as well as messed up steroid signalling which can be a bit of a vicious circle. This is where you seem to start to see people who have serious windows and waves and potentially longer waves, recoveries that get worse before they get better, etc. Sometimes these people can’t tolerate certain supplements at certain times, because with the neurosteroid and hormone fluctuations it’s a bit more all over the map. Best thing for this appears to also be supporting proper epigenetic healing as above but sometimes people can benefit from supporting thyroid and liver function as well. Again, only if tolerated. This is where i think I am. partly because most of my problems come from glucocorticoids and not necesssarily ssri use

The third group is the adverse reactions group, which can be split in two. The first group basically has a brain freakout when they take the drugs and they recover much the same as the first group i talked about. Sometimes their acute is worse but often they recover quickly. The second half is the long recoverers (or, much more rarely, the partial recoverers) after an adverse reaction. These often include groups with collagen issues, tissue damage, stuff like that. Very severe physical reactions on top od the mental effects. I’ve been doing a lot of work going over papers and talking with my good friends, a couple of doctors, and a neuroscientist on this section, as i’m trying to help people if I can, having a bit of a background here (not just your average carpenter) and we’ve come up with a likely culprit in gene expression being altered on a much harder to switch back section of our genome. Extremis states caused by exogenous compounds can make rapid epigenetic changes, and make them quite enduring unfortunately. There are several groups that do share a lot of similar test results, with metabolites of hormones and gene tests coming up with the same points time and time again. Those are people who have: used accutane, used ashwagandha, used 5htp (myself in here), used mondoxil or finasteride, and those who experience profound and lasting pssd from serotogenic compounds. This is the toughest group as there are some fixes out there but they sre paradoxical in nature, what helps one person may harm someone else, and as of yet its very hard to tell which is which without experimentation which is dangerous as it could make it worse (don’t do it if you’re this type) but there is good news on the horizon is that i believe we are getting closer to understanding this. I have my full genetic map out in front of me and are taking things, checking boxes, targeting certain potentially problematic spots and trying to come up with a more precise theory than just “wait it out”

Which, I will stress, is still the absolute best most proven method of recovery with the highest chance of success and lowest chance of harm.

I just take chances a lot.

Is anyone looking at methylation patterns in people withdrawing from ADs? It is an interesting idea. Have I understood correctly?- your theory is that specific germline variants determine our response to AD withdrawal- giving rise to the 3 or 4 syndromes your describe- leading to different epigenetic changes indicated by distinct patterns of methylation?

Just now, RedRobin said:

Is anyone looking at methylation patterns in people withdrawing from ADs? It is an interesting idea. Have I understood correctly?- your theory is that specific germline variants determine our response to AD withdrawal- giving rise to the 3 or 4 syndromes your describe- leading to different epigenetic changes indicated by distinct patterns of methylation?

9 hours ago, Talltreescoldseas said:

Yeah don’t we all sometimes.

It definitely brought it back. Ugh. Seemingly randomly.

Appreciate it. Most people think i’m probably pushing it a bit far but I’ve been working to try to isolate some gene sequences that make us more or less able to recover quickly.

Below this can be considered speculation so read on with a heaping tablespoon of salt but dont shit on it if it doesnt click everything together right now, it’s in progress.

I think i’ve seen three broadly different types of withdrawals/adverse reactions and recoveries. I can get into it a bit but it appears there are a few different things that can be switched on or off depending on what the reaction was. Some people are in the pool that has receptors that were habituated to the presence of the drug and when they come down slowly they get the usual withdrawal symptoms and return to baseline over time. Best case group. More linear trajectory, only factor is time and how well your body methylates. Fish oil, magnesium, methylfolate (active b9) and vitamin c (if that’s tolerable) appear to be the best combo to encourage the expression of more receptors.

The second cohort are the neurosteroid cohort, which is where you start seeing a little longer or weirder PAWS and etc. Neurosteroid production is modulated by a whole host of other genes and these are more complicated than just say “BDNF and MTHFR” genes. They generally cause add on effects or stack effects as serotonin can increase the production and release of allopregnenalone for instance. And then Allopregnenalone increases GABA and serotonin release which can lower cortisol and increase the synthesis of more allo. So this cohort might be dealing with down regulated receptors as well as messed up steroid signalling which can be a bit of a vicious circle. This is where you seem to start to see people who have serious windows and waves and potentially longer waves, recoveries that get worse before they get better, etc. Sometimes these people can’t tolerate certain supplements at certain times, because with the neurosteroid and hormone fluctuations it’s a bit more all over the map. Best thing for this appears to also be supporting proper epigenetic healing as above but sometimes people can benefit from supporting thyroid and liver function as well. Again, only if tolerated. This is where i think I am. partly because most of my problems come from glucocorticoids and not necesssarily ssri use

The third group is the adverse reactions group, which can be split in two. The first group basically has a brain freakout when they take the drugs and they recover much the same as the first group i talked about. Sometimes their acute is worse but often they recover quickly. The second half is the long recoverers (or, much more rarely, the partial recoverers) after an adverse reaction. These often include groups with collagen issues, tissue damage, stuff like that. Very severe physical reactions on top od the mental effects. I’ve been doing a lot of work going over papers and talking with my good friends, a couple of doctors, and a neuroscientist on this section, as i’m trying to help people if I can, having a bit of a background here (not just your average carpenter) and we’ve come up with a likely culprit in gene expression being altered on a much harder to switch back section of our genome. Extremis states caused by exogenous compounds can make rapid epigenetic changes, and make them quite enduring unfortunately. There are several groups that do share a lot of similar test results, with metabolites of hormones and gene tests coming up with the same points time and time again. Those are people who have: used accutane, used ashwagandha, used 5htp (myself in here), used mondoxil or finasteride, and those who experience profound and lasting pssd from serotogenic compounds. This is the toughest group as there are some fixes out there but they sre paradoxical in nature, what helps one person may harm someone else, and as of yet its very hard to tell which is which without experimentation which is dangerous as it could make it worse (don’t do it if you’re this type) but there is good news on the horizon is that i believe we are getting closer to understanding this. I have my full genetic map out in front of me and are taking things, checking boxes, targeting certain potentially problematic spots and trying to come up with a more precise theory than just “wait it out”

Which, I will stress, is still the absolute best most proven method of recovery with the highest chance of success and lowest chance of harm.

I just take chances a lot.

You do sound like a bit of a risk-taker!

6 minutes ago, RedRobin said:

Is anyone looking at methylation patterns in people withdrawing from ADs?

I’m not sure anyone is specifically. The closest i can find right now is Dr Powers and his deep diving into PFS stuff, which likely will help unlock some of the worst of cases. Unfortunately it’s going to be a very case-by-case basis. One thing i’ve found is the COMT variant about speed of reuptake of neurotransmitters. I’d need, of course, more gene sequences to be able to get a curve but the three people i’ve looked at so far all have the allele for super fast clearance. So genetically predisposed to having less serotonin, norepinephrine, dopamine and etc around naturally. A theory is that ADs increase the naturally occuring NTs a LOT more than with normal people, causing quite a lot more down regulation of receptors and so the recovery starts a lot farther down the curve.

Also it seems that the people i’ve looked at (most people with ancestry.com, 22and me, etc can download their gene data directly) seem to have messed up methylation. Again, not something we can do anything with at this point but support it and hope the body figures it out

I'm feeling a bit sorry for myself, and need a bit of hope.

This last drop has been difficult. It's been nearly 9 weeks since the last reduction (9% of previous dose, spread over 4 weeks, or 1.9% SERT occupancy drop). Things seemed to be levelling out a bit and I thought perhaps this is the new WD normal. So I made a small drop yesterday (1.6% previous dose). No acute WD symptoms (probably a bit soon for that), but just more of the same. I am now questioning the wisdom of that. I haven't felt anywhere close to normal for more than two years; perhaps going slower would help, but if this is how it's going to be I just want to get to the end.

The hardest thing is the relentless depression. There are brief windows, but they are few and far between. I can drag myself to do things I need to do, and sometimes I feel ok-ish when distracted, but the misery is never far away. Planning anything is so difficult. I'm not the sort of person who gives in easily, but I really do feel like retreating from the world, and not trying to pretend any more. I know so many people here have a much harder time, but I am struggling to see how anyone can keep pushing through this for year after year... I read @RachelSusan 's story on SA this morning, and cried when I read the post about taking her last dose.

I'm hanging on the @Luke 's suggestion that things sometimes get easier along the way. I know there is no guarantee, but I want to believe it so much! Looking back to a year ago I probably feel a bit worse rather than better.

Sorry to anyone reading this for being so negative and miserable (we are all going through it afterall), I just needed to let it out.

@RedRobin Hi there. I saw your post this morning and wanted to reach out because you mentioned me, and because I remember very clearly what it feels like to wonder if this is ever going to ease up.

First, you do not need to apologize for feeling discouraged. What you wrote did not sound “negative” to me. It sounded exhausted. There is a difference.

I also want to say that I cried many times during my own taper and often thought I would never get to the end. I remember reading stories from people who had successfully gotten off antidepressants and feeling envious of them. To me, they had reached the promised land, nirvana, heaven, whatever you want to call it. I wanted so badly to get there myself, but I often believed I never would. But I did get off antidepressants completely, so please know that improvement and healing really can happen, even when it feels impossibly far away.

The other big thing for me was waiting. I waited until I felt as close to “normal” as I could before reducing again. I honestly do not know if there is a true normal during withdrawal, but I learned not to rush myself just because time had passed.

Reading your post, I found myself wondering whether giving yourself another break from tapering might help. Not forever, just a genuine pause. 2 or 3 months even. Think of it almost like a leave of absence from the “work” of tapering. Let your nervous system settle as much as it can without the pressure of the next reduction hanging over you.

Then later, when and if you feel ready, you could reconsider things. Maybe you try something extremely small, like 1% or less, and simply observe what happens. No pressure. No deadline. And as a side note, I do realize you only did a 1.6% reduction this time, but perhaps after a longer hold things may feel a little easier and your nervous system might tolerate it better.

Others may disagree with me and give different advice, and that is okay too. The important thing is that you listen to different perspectives, sit with them, and decide what feels right for you. You do not have to decide today, tomorrow, or even next month. One of the hardest lessons for me was learning that urgency usually made my fear worse. You will know more clearly when your system is ready.

One thing I also want to mention; because of antidepressants I ended up on gabapentin, which was supposed to help me through withdrawal, but for me it did not help the way I hoped and left me dependent on that as well. I am tapering that now, and even recently I reacted to a 3.8% reduction. When I was lamenting about wanting to be able to taper more, @Chippy pointed out to me that many people cannot tolerate the “standard” reductions people talk about. I realized I personally can not think in terms of what I “should” be able to do. The trick for me became finding the dose reduction my nervous system could actually handle with low / manageable or no symptoms. Sometimes that amount will be extremely small. That sensitivity does not mean you are weak or failing. Sometimes it just means your system needs a gentler approach and more time.

If you ever want support, feel free to write either on your page and tag me like you did or come to my thread and post there. I am happy to support you in whatever way I can. I probably will bore you with my philosophy of tapering but I am here to support. That is really what we are all here for.

One practical note: I only see my mentions from AD Recovery once a day, so my replies can be delayed by around 24 hours. I just mention that so you do not feel ignored or let down if I do not answer immediately.

You are still here. You are still trying. That counts for more than you know.

.

Edited May 22May 22 by RachelSusan

@RedRobin

I’m so sorry to your recent drop has been tough.

I agree with @RachelSusan i think you would benefit from much longer hold and then a more gradual taper in a few months. I think you are playing catch up from the larger drops you have taken. It’s rare for people to get down to such a low dose with 9/10% cuts like you have.

Listen to your body. If this cut is too much please don’t be afraid to updose back to where you were to cushion things. This is often the right move if a cut is too large and it is not a failure to do so. Some are fearful of updosing but if done within a few days of a cut it is really a perfectly sensible thing to do.

If you think it hasn’t shaken you too dramatically I would just hold here and give your body a good rest so it can do some recalibrating. 😀

Slow is the new fast.

1 hour ago, RachelSusan said:

@RedRobin Hi there. I saw your post this morning and wanted to reach out because you mentioned me, and because I remember very clearly what it feels like to wonder if this is ever going to ease up.

First, you do not need to apologize for feeling discouraged. What you wrote did not sound “negative” to me. It sounded exhausted. There is a difference.

I also want to say that I cried many times during my own taper and often thought I would never get to the end. I remember reading stories from people who had successfully gotten off antidepressants and feeling envious of them. To me, they had reached the promised land, nirvana, heaven, whatever you want to call it. I wanted so badly to get there myself, but I often believed I never would. But I did get off antidepressants completely, so please know that improvement and healing really can happen, even when it feels impossibly far away.

The other big thing for me was waiting. I waited until I felt as close to “normal” as I could before reducing again. I honestly do not know if there is a true normal during withdrawal, but I learned not to rush myself just because time had passed.

Reading your post, I found myself wondering whether giving yourself another break from tapering might help. Not forever, just a genuine pause. 2 or 3 months even. Think of it almost like a leave of absence from the “work” of tapering. Let your nervous system settle as much as it can without the pressure of the next reduction hanging over you.

Then later, when and if you feel ready, you could reconsider things. Maybe you try something extremely small, like 1% or less, and simply observe what happens. No pressure. No deadline. And as a side note, I do realize you only did a 1.6% reduction this time, but perhaps after a longer hold things may feel a little easier and your nervous system might tolerate it better.

Others may disagree with me and give different advice, and that is okay too. The important thing is that you listen to different perspectives, sit with them, and decide what feels right for you. You do not have to decide today, tomorrow, or even next month. One of the hardest lessons for me was learning that urgency usually made my fear worse. You will know more clearly when your system is ready.

One thing I also want to mention; because of antidepressants I ended up on gabapentin, which was supposed to help me through withdrawal, but for me it did not help the way I hoped and left me dependent on that as well. I am tapering that now, and even recently I reacted to a 3.8% reduction. When I was lamenting about wanting to be able to taper more, @Chippy pointed out to me that many people cannot tolerate the “standard” reductions people talk about. I realized I personally can not think in terms of what I “should” be able to do. The trick for me became finding the dose reduction my nervous system could actually handle with low / manageable or no symptoms. Sometimes that amount will be extremely small. That sensitivity does not mean you are weak or failing. Sometimes it just means your system needs a gentler approach and more time.

If you ever want support, feel free to write either on your page and tag me like you did or come to my thread and post there. I am happy to support you in whatever way I can. I probably will bore you with my philosophy of tapering but I am here to support. That is really what we are all here for.

One practical note: I only see my mentions from AD Recovery once a day, so my replies can be delayed by around 24 hours. I just mention that so you do not feel ignored or let down if I do not answer immediately.

You are still here. You are still trying. That counts for more than you know.

.

1 hour ago, RachelSusan said:

It sounded exhausted. There is a difference.

You are right, that's exactly how it feels!

1 hour ago, RachelSusan said:

@RedRobin Hi there. I saw your post this morning and wanted to reach out because you mentioned me, and because I remember very clearly what it feels like to wonder if this is ever going to ease up.

First, you do not need to apologize for feeling discouraged. What you wrote did not sound “negative” to me. It sounded exhausted. There is a difference.

I also want to say that I cried many times during my own taper and often thought I would never get to the end. I remember reading stories from people who had successfully gotten off antidepressants and feeling envious of them. To me, they had reached the promised land, nirvana, heaven, whatever you want to call it. I wanted so badly to get there myself, but I often believed I never would. But I did get off antidepressants completely, so please know that improvement and healing really can happen, even when it feels impossibly far away.

The other big thing for me was waiting. I waited until I felt as close to “normal” as I could before reducing again. I honestly do not know if there is a true normal during withdrawal, but I learned not to rush myself just because time had passed.

Reading your post, I found myself wondering whether giving yourself another break from tapering might help. Not forever, just a genuine pause. 2 or 3 months even. Think of it almost like a leave of absence from the “work” of tapering. Let your nervous system settle as much as it can without the pressure of the next reduction hanging over you.

Then later, when and if you feel ready, you could reconsider things. Maybe you try something extremely small, like 1% or less, and simply observe what happens. No pressure. No deadline. And as a side note, I do realize you only did a 1.6% reduction this time, but perhaps after a longer hold things may feel a little easier and your nervous system might tolerate it better.

Others may disagree with me and give different advice, and that is okay too. The important thing is that you listen to different perspectives, sit with them, and decide what feels right for you. You do not have to decide today, tomorrow, or even next month. One of the hardest lessons for me was learning that urgency usually made my fear worse. You will know more clearly when your system is ready.

One thing I also want to mention; because of antidepressants I ended up on gabapentin, which was supposed to help me through withdrawal, but for me it did not help the way I hoped and left me dependent on that as well. I am tapering that now, and even recently I reacted to a 3.8% reduction. When I was lamenting about wanting to be able to taper more, @Chippy pointed out to me that many people cannot tolerate the “standard” reductions people talk about. I realized I personally can not think in terms of what I “should” be able to do. The trick for me became finding the dose reduction my nervous system could actually handle with low / manageable or no symptoms. Sometimes that amount will be extremely small. That sensitivity does not mean you are weak or failing. Sometimes it just means your system needs a gentler approach and more time.

If you ever want support, feel free to write either on your page and tag me like you did or come to my thread and post there. I am happy to support you in whatever way I can. I probably will bore you with my philosophy of tapering but I am here to support. That is really what we are all here for.

One practical note: I only see my mentions from AD Recovery once a day, so my replies can be delayed by around 24 hours. I just mention that so you do not feel ignored or let down if I do not answer immediately.

You are still here. You are still trying. That counts for more than you know.

.

Thank you @RachelSusan for your kind and supportive words. You are quite right, I do feel exhausted with it all. You are also probably right about holing for a while. In fact I've been thinking for a while now that once I get to 1mg (which I had hoped would be by July-ish) I might hold indefinitely. The whole process has been so miserable that the prospect of years more of the same is hard to take. I was wondering whether a very prolonged hold would allow more healing from the initial damage done by a too-fast initial taper, so that a slow taper much later on would be easier. It just feels like repeatedly poking a bruise so that it never heals. I don't think I've felt normal since the symptoms set in about two years ago- despite a hold of around 9 months at 4mg, although some less bad times within that.

As you mention, we are all different and the 'standard' 10% figure is arbitrary (a bit like my 1mg target). I think I'm just having a particularly bad day. Tomorrow will be better...

Anyway I really appreciate your support, and don't worry about not responding instantly- we've all got lives to live away from this forum!

1 hour ago, RachelSusan said:

@RedRobin Hi there. I saw your post this morning and wanted to reach out because you mentioned me, and because I remember very clearly what it feels like to wonder if this is ever going to ease up.

First, you do not need to apologize for feeling discouraged. What you wrote did not sound “negative” to me. It sounded exhausted. There is a difference.

I also want to say that I cried many times during my own taper and often thought I would never get to the end. I remember reading stories from people who had successfully gotten off antidepressants and feeling envious of them. To me, they had reached the promised land, nirvana, heaven, whatever you want to call it. I wanted so badly to get there myself, but I often believed I never would. But I did get off antidepressants completely, so please know that improvement and healing really can happen, even when it feels impossibly far away.

The other big thing for me was waiting. I waited until I felt as close to “normal” as I could before reducing again. I honestly do not know if there is a true normal during withdrawal, but I learned not to rush myself just because time had passed.

Reading your post, I found myself wondering whether giving yourself another break from tapering might help. Not forever, just a genuine pause. 2 or 3 months even. Think of it almost like a leave of absence from the “work” of tapering. Let your nervous system settle as much as it can without the pressure of the next reduction hanging over you.

Then later, when and if you feel ready, you could reconsider things. Maybe you try something extremely small, like 1% or less, and simply observe what happens. No pressure. No deadline. And as a side note, I do realize you only did a 1.6% reduction this time, but perhaps after a longer hold things may feel a little easier and your nervous system might tolerate it better.

Others may disagree with me and give different advice, and that is okay too. The important thing is that you listen to different perspectives, sit with them, and decide what feels right for you. You do not have to decide today, tomorrow, or even next month. One of the hardest lessons for me was learning that urgency usually made my fear worse. You will know more clearly when your system is ready.

One thing I also want to mention; because of antidepressants I ended up on gabapentin, which was supposed to help me through withdrawal, but for me it did not help the way I hoped and left me dependent on that as well. I am tapering that now, and even recently I reacted to a 3.8% reduction. When I was lamenting about wanting to be able to taper more, @Chippy pointed out to me that many people cannot tolerate the “standard” reductions people talk about. I realized I personally can not think in terms of what I “should” be able to do. The trick for me became finding the dose reduction my nervous system could actually handle with low / manageable or no symptoms. Sometimes that amount will be extremely small. That sensitivity does not mean you are weak or failing. Sometimes it just means your system needs a gentler approach and more time.

If you ever want support, feel free to write either on your page and tag me like you did or come to my thread and post there. I am happy to support you in whatever way I can. I probably will bore you with my philosophy of tapering but I am here to support. That is really what we are all here for.

One practical note: I only see my mentions from AD Recovery once a day, so my replies can be delayed by around 24 hours. I just mention that so you do not feel ignored or let down if I do not answer immediately.

You are still here. You are still trying. That counts for more than you know.

.

Good morning @RedRobin hope today is a better day for you, thinking of you atm.

@RedRobin

Thank you for writing back. I am sorry you are having such a hard stretch right now, although I have to say your description of “repeatedly poking a bruise so that it never heals” is exactly how I feel.

And yes, I really do believe you do not need to decide any of this today. One thing I learned through all of this is that there is a big difference between “not ready” and “never.” I ended up taking a hold from tapering Gabapentin that lasted about 3.5 years. At first I thought I was just pausing temporarily, but time kept passing and I still did not feel ready. Then one day I just woke up and knew I wanted to try tapering again. It was not forced, and it was not because I thought I “should.” I just knew.

So I do think there can be value in giving your nervous system a long stretch of quiet and stability if that is what it seems to be asking for. Sometimes stepping back from the constant cycle of reductions and symptoms can take away some of the fear and pressure too.

And for what it is worth, I do agree with what @Chippy mentioned. It may simply be that the larger reduction before this recent 1.6% cut was a bit much for where your nervous system is right now, especially at the lower doses where things can become surprisingly sensitive. That does not mean you are doing anything wrong. It may just mean things need a gentler pace and more settling time between changes.

But these are only my thoughts and observations from my own experience. The important thing is that you keep listening to yourself and noticing what your system seems to tolerate best.

And I am glad tomorrow already feels a little more hopeful to you. Sometimes a bad day can make the whole future feel permanent when it really is not.

1 hour ago, Chippy said:

@RedRobin

I’m so sorry to your recent drop has been tough.

I agree with @RachelSusan i think you would benefit from much longer hold and then a more gradual taper in a few months. I think you are playing catch up from the larger drops you have taken. It’s rare for people to get down to such a low dose with 9/10% cuts like you have.

Listen to your body. If this cut is too much please don’t be afraid to updose back to where you were to cushion things. This is often the right move if a cut is too large and it is not a failure to do so. Some are fearful of updosing but if done within a few days of a cut it is really a perfectly sensible thing to do.

If you think it hasn’t shaken you too dramatically I would just hold here and give your body a good rest so it can do some recalibrating. 😀

Slow is the new fast.

Thank you Chippy, just saying that makes me feel a bit better. Part of all this (for me anyway) seems to be a warped perception that I'm making heavy weather of this, and that I must be a wuss if I can't do 10% every 6 weeks (the non-warped part of me knows that isn't true!

Thank you for your support and advice. I was thinking about taking a prolonged hold soon anyway, even before this recent wave. Slow is the new fast. Thanks I'll hold on to that.

How are things with you? I's sorry to read you've had such problems with sleep. Feeling sleep-deprived always makes everything else seem worse too. It is amazing that you have the compassion to help. so many others here when you are going through similar things yourself. Thank you.

1 hour ago, Chippy said:

@RedRobin

I’m so sorry to your recent drop has been tough.

I agree with @RachelSusan i think you would benefit from much longer hold and then a more gradual taper in a few months. I think you are playing catch up from the larger drops you have taken. It’s rare for people to get down to such a low dose with 9/10% cuts like you have.

Listen to your body. If this cut is too much please don’t be afraid to updose back to where you were to cushion things. This is often the right move if a cut is too large and it is not a failure to do so. Some are fearful of updosing but if done within a few days of a cut it is really a perfectly sensible thing to do.

If you think it hasn’t shaken you too dramatically I would just hold here and give your body a good rest so it can do some recalibrating. 😀

Slow is the new fast.

You are so wise @RachelSusan ! But as if by magic I've felt much better today! Still the nasty stuff lurking in the corner, but felt so much more positive. I feel a bit embarrassed by outpouring yesterday, but these sudden changes seem to be par for the course. The advice repeated so often here that none of this is permanent, and the bad days will pass is so true, but can be hard to believe at the time. Thank you for your support- it really made such a difference

I'm just going to hop over to your thread.

11 hours ago, Chippy said:

Good morning @RedRobin hope today is a better day for you, thinking of you atm.

Thank you Chippy, I really appreciate you checking in. As is my magic I feel much better today. Woke up to the usual daggers on doom, but once I got moving felt so much more positive. It may be related to a change of routine today (and the sunshine!), but more probably one of these crazy sudden shifts that happen on this road. I'm on Day 3 since the small cut, and I've found before that I sometimes feel quite buoyant shortly after a cut. Could just be the optimsism that comes from moving forward, but I also like to think the brain is saying 'thank goodness there's less of this poison'.

Anyway, long many it continue!

13 hours ago, RedRobin said:

Thank you Chippy, just saying that makes me feel a bit better. Part of all this (for me anyway) seems to be a warped perception that I'm making heavy weather of this, and that I must be a wuss if I can't do 10% every 6 weeks (the non-warped part of me knows that isn't true!

My pleasure @RedRobin :) No you are not a wuss! Not at all, it is adviced to go slower by many taper coaches at lower doses, over all the body sets the pace, so if things are too much, it is likley you are tapering too fast regardless of the metrics. The right reduction is one that suits your body not a plan on paper.

13 hours ago, RedRobin said:

Thank you for your support and advice. I was thinking about taking a prolonged hold soon anyway, even before this recent wave. Slow is the new fast. Thanks I'll hold on to that.

We are always here for you. I do think that is a wise move. As @RachelSusan has said, your body will let you know when it is time to reduce again. Don't think you are stuck on the drug forever you are not. It is just a case of reframing the length of time and approach to the taper. Live whilst you taper rather than rush off and regret it.

13 hours ago, RedRobin said:

How are things with you? I's sorry to read you've had such problems with sleep. Feeling sleep-deprived always makes everything else seem worse too. It is amazing that you have the compassion to help. so many others here when you are going through similar things yourself. Thank you.

Thank you for asking. Honestly Mirtazapine as made a real mess of my life. I suffer from a lot of little issues still 2 years on, one of main problems is disrupted sleep still, and head pressure/burning brain, it has improved some over recent months but still far from sleeping like a log like I did before I took Mirt. The drugs can really upset our systems even from short term use. I didn't just take Mirt and have taken Sertraline for periods in my life too, which I tapered from too quickly, this likley started all of this IMO. It’s a pleasure to try to help and support this community, I remember when I joined sa, I literally cried when I got the reply from the moderator, I felt relieved and validated at a time where I was suffering an awful lot.

13 hours ago, RedRobin said:

I've felt much better today!

So pleased to hear!

13 hours ago, RedRobin said:

I feel a bit embarrassed by outpouring yesterday,

No please don't do that! The ups and downs of waves and windows is very real, and this is the place to vent. Never apologise!

13 hours ago, RedRobin said:

The advice repeated so often here that none of this is permanent, and the bad days will pass is so true, but can be hard to believe at the time.

It is true! The body is amazing, unfortunately it can take some time and the process is non linear so I can understand why it often feels so endless. But everything ends, and the symptoms are just a signs of healing, more symptoms=more healing!

13 hours ago, RedRobin said:

Thank you Chippy, I really appreciate you checking in. As is my magic I feel much better today. Woke up to the usual daggers on doom, but once I got moving felt so much more positive. It may be related to a change of routine today (and the sunshine!), but more probably one of these crazy sudden shifts that happen on this road. I'm on Day 3 since the small cut, and I've found before that I sometimes feel quite buoyant shortly after a cut. Could just be the optimsism that comes from moving forward, but I also like to think the brain is saying 'thank goodness there's less of this poison'.

Anyway, long many it continue!

It is my pleasure, please feel free to post here as much or as little as you want, you are part of the family too! It is very common to feel a bit better once the day progresses, that morning cortisol is often seen to be reason.

I hope today is still a good day for you!

Hi @RedRobin how are you feeling, still a litter better than before I hope? Thanks for dropping by on my thread, I thought I'd pop over here to see how you're doing.

I totally understand your feelings about wanting to get this over and done with, especially as time plods on and we're not getting any younger! I honestly thought my taper would be done and dusted by my mid 50s yet here I am at 60 and no where near the end!

I also understand the focus on hitting a target and holding at that point, I think our brains just like the neatness of that, but of course our brains also don't like the dose drops when we're not ready for them. So, I'm currently stuck at 0.14mg or 0.7ml of solution. I was aiming for 0.5ml of solution (equivalent to 0.1mg Citalopram) before I took my next longer hold, it just seems neater and tidier that 0.7ml! But nope, my body has shouted its protestations in no uncertain terms!

Sending you my best wishes, we're all in this together and will help each other through

xx

@RedRobin I'm wondering how you're doing. Last time you posted, you were feeling a bit better and hoping the improvement would continue. I hope that's still the case.

It's odd how this process can turn on a dime. One day it's doom and gloom, and the next day the sun comes out and the brain decides to cooperate for a change.

How have things been going for you? How is your sleep? Are you still feeling some of that buoyancy, or has the road taken one of its usual unexpected detours?

Hoping things are continuing to move in a positive direction for you.

6 hours ago, RachelSusan said:

@RedRobin I'm wondering how you're doing. Last time you posted, you were feeling a bit better and hoping the improvement would continue. I hope that's still the case.

It's odd how this process can turn on a dime. One day it's doom and gloom, and the next day the sun comes out and the brain decides to cooperate for a change.

How have things been going for you? How is your sleep? Are you still feeling some of that buoyancy, or has the road taken one of its usual unexpected detours?

Hoping things are continuing to move in a positive direction for you.

You are so right! It's like the sun reappearing from behind a cloud. Felling a lot better at the moment. Parhaps last week was one of those 'darkest before the dawn momnets'?

@RedRobin So happy to hear you are still feeling good. This is such a long journey that we all grow weary of it. Remember we are here for you when you need us.

On 5/31/2026 at 10:35 AM, Mamgu said:

Hi @RedRobin how are you feeling, still a litter better than before I hope? Thanks for dropping by on my thread, I thought I'd pop over here to see how you're doing.

I totally understand your feelings about wanting to get this over and done with, especially as time plods on and we're not getting any younger! I honestly thought my taper would be done and dusted by my mid 50s yet here I am at 60 and no where near the end!

I also understand the focus on hitting a target and holding at that point, I think our brains just like the neatness of that, but of course our brains also don't like the dose drops when we're not ready for them. So, I'm currently stuck at 0.14mg or 0.7ml of solution. I was aiming for 0.5ml of solution (equivalent to 0.1mg Citalopram) before I took my next longer hold, it just seems neater and tidier that 0.7ml! But nope, my body has shouted its protestations in no uncertain terms!

Sending you my best wishes, we're all in this together and will help each other through

xx

thanks @Mamgu, and apologies for the radio silence. It was kind of you to call in. On the whole this last month has been better. I've reduced a bit, but have abandoned the 10% over 6 weeks idea, and just chip off a tiny amount when it feels right. I like what you say about neatness, and a nice round '1.0mg' (or 0.1mg in your case!), but of course our brains are probably operating on a completely different nymber system! It continues to amaze me that the effects of even a tiny drop are so keenly felt. I am due to see a new GP this week, and am steeling myself to have to explain this all to him (dreading the response 'oh, 1mg won't be having any effect at all' (and thinking I'm a nut case).

The current plan is to 1mg and then pause indefinitely. Ultimately I still want to get off completely (although perhaps that's another example of wanting things to be neat and tidy?) I have this awful fear that one day, when I can't advocate for myself, some welling meaning care-giver will just stop it, and not understand the consequences. Others on this site have said the same.

How about you? I read about your fall. Gosh, it's hard enough going through this tapering lark without having to deal with health issues and accidents!

Anyway, thanks as ever for your support Mamgu. Take care and onwards and upwards.

On 6/1/2026 at 5:24 PM, RachelSusan said:

@RedRobin So happy to hear you are still feeling good. This is such a long journey that we all grow weary of it. Remember we are here for you when you need us.

Thanks @RachelSusan , and sorry I didn't respond sooner. My visits to the site are a bit sporadic, and have to stop myself going down a doom spiral of reading too many stories. I've been trying to keep busy, at least away from screens in general because it's all too easy to get immersed in stuff that really doesn't help! The last month has been okay- okay enough to reduce a bit more. It's all so unpredicatble though, and apart from some very obvious immediate symptoms, the delayed ones seem to appear at random- which what seems to have happened in the Spring.

How is your (2nd) taper going? I hope the experience of having done it once before will make it easier this time.

Could I ask you a couple of questions? I was reading about the end of your sertaline taper, and that final reductions didn't cause too much upset. When did you feel back to 'normal' . Also, when you had bad symtoms after the intial gabapentin taper, how long did it take to recover?

On 6/1/2026 at 5:24 PM, RachelSusan said:

@RedRobin So happy to hear you are still feeling good. This is such a long journey that we all grow weary of it. Remember we are here for you when you need us.

Hi @RedRobin, it's nice to hear from you, and please don't apologize. I completely understand what you mean about the site. It can be such a wonderful source of support, but it's also very easy to get pulled into reading story after story and end up in a doom spiral. I'm glad this last month has been okay enough for you to make another reduction. I hope it continues to be kind to you. Withdrawal really is so unpredictable. Those delayed symptoms can be especially confusing because they seem to appear out of nowhere.

I actually just made my 3rd taper this morning. Having been through that very difficult taper a few years ago does make it a bit easier emotionally because I know what withdrawal can do, and I'm also going a lot slower. My first cut this time around was fairly easy. The second one gave me about five days of symptoms, but then they settled back down. This third cut was only 1.33%, so I'm hoping it's small enough that it won't stir things up too much.

In answer to your question, looking back, the last several months of my Zoloft taper were actually surprisingly easy. Around August 2021 I started feeling like myself again, but I stayed on the medication until the end of December anyway. I thought of it as insurance for my nervous system. By the time I took my last dose on Dec 31st, 2021, I was down to just 0.023 mg and was already feeling completely normal, so I never had any symptoms from stopping altogether. After years of absolute hell tapering Zoloft, it was such a gift to have that last part be peaceful, and I've always been grateful for it.

My first gabapentin taper was a very difficult situation. If I'm remembering the timeline correctly, I think I had about six months of really intense symptoms before I noticed even a slight improvement, and then it took roughly another three months to feel substantially better. My memory isn't perfect on the exact timing, but that's how I remember it. That experience taught me a lot, and it's one of the reasons I'm being so cautious this time.

It was really nice hearing from you. I'll be thinking of you, and I hope your next few weeks are quiet and uneventful in the very best way. ❤️

Thanks RS, I'm glad to hear your taper is going as well as can be expected, and I hope this continues with the latest cut. Gabapentin sounds a particularly nasty drug. Continually reminding ourselves that all symptoms pass eventually is so important.

I am encouraged by what you say about the latter stages of the sertaline taper. I know it is different for everyone, but it is good to have hope that things may not be as bad as we fear. I notice that you were able to reduce when you got to 0.5mg (of course that may not be equivalent to my citalopram depending on the SERT occupancy curve.) If I felt it woud be just another two years that would be just about bearable (...?), and it is, I'm just trying not to think about it.

I've reduced by 6.4% this cycle, which feels like enough. The acute symptoms are mild, but it seems that the background depression just doesn't really budge. One day things seem okays, and then not...BUT, so many people have a far worse time, so I need to buck up!

Wishing you well with this cut RS. Each one done is (probably) one you won't have to do again!

@RedRobin

I'm glad this reduction has been manageable for you, but sorry to read about the background depression. I hope that it eases with time.

I especially loved what you wrote: "Each one done is (probably) one you won't have to do again!" That really resonated with me. I think I'll be reminding myself of those words again and again as I continue my own taper. Thank you again for your encouragement.

On 6/28/2026 at 3:24 PM, RedRobin said:

thanks @Mamgu, and apologies for the radio silence. It was kind of you to call in. On the whole this last month has been better. I've reduced a bit, but have abandoned the 10% over 6 weeks idea, and just chip off a tiny amount when it feels right. I like what you say about neatness, and a nice round '1.0mg' (or 0.1mg in your case!), but of course our brains are probably operating on a completely different nymber system! It continues to amaze me that the effects of even a tiny drop are so keenly felt. I am due to see a new GP this week, and am steeling myself to have to explain this all to him (dreading the response 'oh, 1mg won't be having any effect at all' (and thinking I'm a nut case).

The current plan is to 1mg and then pause indefinitely. Ultimately I still want to get off completely (although perhaps that's another example of wanting things to be neat and tidy?) I have this awful fear that one day, when I can't advocate for myself, some welling meaning care-giver will just stop it, and not understand the consequences. Others on this site have said the same.

How about you? I read about your fall. Gosh, it's hard enough going through this tapering lark without having to deal with health issues and accidents!

Anyway, thanks as ever for your support Mamgu. Take care and onwards and upwards.

Hi @RedRobin glad things have been better for you, we need to remind ourselves that eventually it always does get better! But it's never quick enough is it.

I've been doing the same thing; chip off a tiny amount when it feels right. On the whole it's been working for me and there is a sense of progress. But I'm still astonished at how often I need to take a longer hold, especially as the drops are so tiny.

Interesting comment about well meaning caregiver possibly stopping the dose completely. I can relate to that fear too, though in my head it's if I had an accident and needed to spend some time in hospital and they take my Drs notes literally, 3 x 10mg per week! They wrote that down to make repeat prescriptions easy to handle. In my latest Drs visit the new GP asked me if I really did take that dose and I explained. I suppose there is some comfort that she recognised taking intermittent doses is not recommended! Anyway, back to the point - I have a propensity to catastrophise and take things to the end point, engaging emotionally with it. I'm aware I do that and am getting some CBT to help reframe my thoughts, it's highly unlikely I'll be in that position. So, when you have similar thoughts I hope you can reassure yourself that it's very unlikely to happen and to save your mental energies for what is in front of you today, not in the hypothetical future. I know it's easier said than done - it seems everything about coming off antidepressants is easier said than done!

Anyway, sending you my best wishes and hope the long windows open soon

xx