9 hours ago, Luke said:

This one is especially ludicrous, because they're two names for the same thing.

I know, I almost laughed out loud in my appointment at that one. Even the most ignorant psychiatrist should be able to see that it's at best a semantic distinction, right???

@Luke or @Chippy or really anyone, I guess I'm curious why the profession is in such denial about the existence of withdrawal or ADRs. Is there any legitimate research they can point to in support of their position? I just don't understand how they can make these sweeping statements about how something "can't be withdrawal" or changing multiple drugs is "harmless" (another thing my psychiatrist said) without having some sort of evidence, however flawed, to back it up. That wouldn't fly in my profession, or in many others I wouldn't think...

1 minute ago, SarahMc said:

I know, I almost laughed out loud in my appointment at that one. Even the most ignorant psychiatrist should be able to see that it's at best a semantic distinction, right???

@Luke or @Chippy or really anyone, I guess I'm curious why the profession is in such denial about the existence of withdrawal or ADRs. Is there any legitimate research they can point to in support of their position? I just don't understand how they can make these sweeping statements about how something "can't be withdrawal" or changing multiple drugs is "harmless" (another thing my psychiatrist said) without having some sort of evidence, however flawed, to back it up. That wouldn't fly in my profession, or in many others I wouldn't think...

I know! There isn’t any! We just believe it as there must be some right! Shocking. Capitalist society, shareholders are more important than patient safety. Pharma have more lawyers than scientists.

Just now, SarahMc said:

I know, I almost laughed out loud in my appointment at that one. Even the most ignorant psychiatrist should be able to see that it's at best a semantic distinction, right???

@Luke or @Chippy or really anyone, I guess I'm curious why the profession is in such denial about the existence of withdrawal or ADRs. Is there any legitimate research they can point to in support of their position? I just don't understand how they can make these sweeping statements about how something "can't be withdrawal" or changing multiple drugs is "harmless" (another thing my psychiatrist said) without having some sort of evidence, however flawed, to back it up. That wouldn't fly in my profession, or in many others I wouldn't think...

Well, speaking from the perspective of medical care in the US....doctors don't get much time to discuss a patient's issues. Some surveys say most doctors decide what's wrong with your within 30 seconds of greeting you. So they're pressed for time and its in their best interest to get you in and out as quickly as possible. They also get most of their information from pharma sales reps. When a sales rep tells a doctor this pill can "cure" depression or anxiety, the doctor will accept it, especially if it will save them time during an appointment. There hasn't been much objective scientific research on the reality of AD withdrawal because its not a big political issue nor is it perceived as a "real" problem. Its certainly ignored by the sales people the doctors see every week.

My view, anyway.

7 minutes ago, mstimc60 said:

They also get most of their information from pharma sales reps.

Pretty much. I’m always shocked by their lack of curiosity though. How Pharma has managed to pull the wool over the eyes of an entire profession is amazing to me.

13 hours ago, SarahMc said:

That wouldn't fly in my profession, or in many others I wouldn't think.

If I had to guess, your profession likely isn't based completely on trial and error.

To expand on that statement:

• Understanding of how various psychiatric drugs work and affect us is very poor. We can measure some bodily changes like receptor occupancy, but what that really means for the body and brain, who knows?

• Normal practice involves telling patients that a drug might not work for them. It is very common to try several before finding "the right one". Other pharmaceutical drugs are nowhere near this ineffective. Nobody knows why any of this is the case, nor why they work well when they supposedly do.

• If a drug doesn't work, normal practice is to simply try another, and to keep trying again and again. Clinicians have no predictive power to know which might work well.

• About the best that they can do, is try to line up common side effects with the patients' reported symptoms, and hope that this will be a good thing. For example, if a drug is sedative and has drowsiness as a common side effect, they often use it for patients who report sleep difficulties. Still, that doesn't work for everybody either.

It's pure trial and error. Cardiologists are using objective measurements, and then prescribe a drug that almost always has its intended effect on the circulatory system, for example.

Psychiatrists are often resistant to any questioning, because their profession does not stand up to basic questioning, at all. They are often resistant to discussion of harms, because if these drugs can cause harm, naturally the ethics of normal practice simply being cycle through drugs randomly until one seems to work would be called into question.

8 hours ago, Luke said:

It's pure trial and error.

I did know this going into treatment, and the practitioners I've met have been pretty open about that aspect of things (even though it is pretty shocking when you really think about it). But I've never had anyone warn me about the potential effects of withdrawal, nor did anyone tell me that a bunch of the symptoms I was experiencing, including symptoms that were brand new to me, were most likely withdrawal symptoms. Now in retrospect it seems so obvious though -- I mean, how likely is it that I would develop brand new symptoms of mental illness in my mid-thirties seemingly out of nowhere?? I've always had bad anxiety, but the way it has manifested after I cross-tapered from Cymbalta to Zoloft and since then is completely different. It just seems wild to me that everyone just told me the Zoloft "wasn't working" and I should try yet another med. Like beyond unethical. And I believed them because I didn't know any better and I was terrified that I was losing my mind.

I've witnessed severe untreated mental illness in my life and I do honestly believe that some people can benefit from medical treatment. But can we just have a frank, evidence-based conversation about how to do that responsibly while minimizing harm and giving patients all the information they need to make truly informed decisions??

Anyways, apologies for the rant 😅🫠

1 hour ago, SarahMc said:

I've witnessed severe untreated mental illness in my life and I do honestly believe that some people can benefit from medical treatment. But can we just have a frank, evidence-based conversation about how to do that responsibly while minimizing harm and giving patients all the information they need to make truly informed decisions??

I agree--some serious mental illnesses may be bests treated with medication. But these are true illnesses like schizophrenia that may result in physical harm to the sufferers or those around them. I don't think anxiety and related conditions are the same; they are behavioral problems and not illnesses. They're caused by the ways our brains are wired and not "illnesses" and don't need to be medicated any more than being left-handed needs treatment.

But we've been taught any aberration from "normal" behavior needs to be treated and cured. Pharma companies saw an opportunity and jumped on it with SSRI's and benzos. Doctors, pressed for time by HMO's and patient loads, went along with the quick fix meds offered. When one med caused an undesirable side effect or didn't have the expected effect, doctors piled on more and messed with peoples' CNS even more. And that's got a lot of people convinced they're sick and need treatment. What they really need is ways of dealing the way our brains process stimuli in more positive ways.

12 hours ago, SarahMc said:

I've witnessed severe untreated mental illness in my life and I do honestly believe that some people can benefit from medical treatment. But can we just have a frank, evidence-based conversation about how to do that responsibly while minimizing harm and giving patients all the information they need to make truly informed decisions??

I am attempting to have just that with various, relevant bodies in the UK. The level of resistance I am meeting is very high.

@Luke it takes impressive strength and courage to have that fight while going through personal hell. Even if it feels like you’re getting nowhere, when it comes to advocacy like that I truly believe that every voice makes a difference. If enough people speak up, one day things will be better.

The last week has been pretty wavy for me. I can mostly handle the physical symptoms, with the exception of one day when I had a pretty brutal migraine. But the thing that’s really getting me down is that my brain just feels constantly stuck in this thick, dense fog. I can’t think like I used to, I’m not intellectually stimulated by anything, I’m super forgetful, and it’s really hard to me to feel joy or excitement about anything (although I do get the odd flash here or there, which I’m trying to hang onto for dear life).

Rationally know this has to pass at some point, but each day I wake up like this it becomes harder to really believe it.

11 minutes ago, SarahMc said:

The last week has been pretty wavy for me. I can mostly handle the physical symptoms, with the exception of one day when I had a pretty brutal migraine. But the thing that’s really getting me down is that my brain just feels constantly stuck in this thick, dense fog. I can’t think like I used to, I’m not intellectually stimulated by anything, I’m super forgetful, and it’s really hard to me to feel joy or excitement about anything (although I do get the odd flash here or there, which I’m trying to hang onto for dear life).

Rationally know this has to pass at some point, but each day I wake up like this it becomes harder to really believe it.

Sorry Sarah. Awful the ups and down I know. You’re doing a great job dealing with it all. Believe it will end. Because it will! The body is amazing and knows what it’s doing. We just have tag along whilst it sorts all this out.

35 minutes ago, SarahMc said:

The last week has been pretty wavy for me. I can mostly handle the physical symptoms, with the exception of one day when I had a pretty brutal migraine. But the thing that’s really getting me down is that my brain just feels constantly stuck in this thick, dense fog. I can’t think like I used to, I’m not intellectually stimulated by anything, I’m super forgetful, and it’s really hard to me to feel joy or excitement about anything (although I do get the odd flash here or there, which I’m trying to hang onto for dear life).

Rationally know this has to pass at some point, but each day I wake up like this it becomes harder to really believe it.

Oh yes, the brain fog, as if the brain is barley functioning on one cell among other symptoms with the intensities that change in a second..

As much as it feels eternal, it will fade, no doubt, time will do the job.

Wishing you easier days soon @SarahMc

Edited May 6May 6 by Fullhealing

Thanks @Chippy and @Fullhealing. You’re both doing amazing work providing constant advice and reassurance to everyone while dealing with your own struggles. As silly as it sounds, some days it means everything just to have someone say it’s going to be ok 😊

Edited May 6May 6 by SarahMc

16 minutes ago, SarahMc said:

some days it means everything just to have someone says it’s going to be ok 😊

And it will be! 😀

On 5/4/2026 at 11:50 AM, SarahMc said:

@Luke it takes impressive strength and courage to have that fight while going through personal hell. Even if it feels like you’re getting nowhere, when it comes to advocacy like that I truly believe that every voice makes a difference. If enough people speak up, one day things will be better.

Thank you. Getting more people to speak up can be challenging.

@Chippy @mstimc60 or anyone, given the number of med changes I’ve been through in the past year it makes sense that it will take a while for me to stabilize right? Like maybe months? I’m just getting a bit freaked out that I won’t stabilize and that this is it for me until I get off the meds. Woke up with a wicked headache again this morning.

2 minutes ago, SarahMc said:

@Chippy @mstimc60 or anyone, given the number of med changes I’ve been through in the past year it makes sense that it will take a while for me to stabilize right? Like maybe months? I’m just getting a bit freaked out that I won’t stabilize and that this is it for me until I get off the meds. Woke up with a wicked headache again this morning.

It can take some time to stabilise. Long holds are not uncommon. Doesn’t mean you won’t just means it could take some time with windows and waves on route. Holding is very often exactly what the body needs. You’re doing the right thing.

Thanks @Chippy. Wish I didn’t need the reassurance, but I really appreciate it.

27 minutes ago, SarahMc said:

Thanks @Chippy. Wish I didn’t need the reassurance, but I really appreciate it.

We need a little reassurance from time to time. It’s very normal. Not an easy journey this. You’re doing great.

So I just had an appointment with my psychiatrist and he told me that he wants to increase my cymbalta to 120 mg to see if we can "level out my moods." I told him I really don't want to do that but he kept mentioning it and then at the end of the appointment said we'd discuss it again next week.

This is really complicated for me because I'm on medical leave from work and am receiving disability insurance. My insurer talks to my medical providers and I risk getting cut off if my psychiatrist tells the insurer that I'm refusing treatment or whatever (obviously my psychiatrist doesn't believe that I'm in withdrawal or that I'm kindled, he just thinks that I'm anxious and depressed). So I was really freaking out about this on my drive home thinking that I might be forced to make yet another med change.

But then it occurred to me on my drive home -- maybe I could agree to increase to 120 mg and then just...not? Like tell him I'm taking it and just keep taking 90?

Has anyone been in a similar situation before?? I'd really love to hear any thoughts.

24 minutes ago, SarahMc said:

then it occurred to me on my drive home -- maybe I could agree to increase to 120 mg and then just...not? Like tell him I'm taking it and just keep taking 90?

Has anyone been in a similar situation before?? I'd really love to hear any thoughts.

@SarahMc this is an awful position for you to be put in frankly. I’d sack him!

It is certainly an option to just agree and take the normal dose, I think it’s dreadful you would be put in this position. Your body you choose what you put in it! Definitely don’t move your doses around!

@LostinCanada thoughts?

41 minutes ago, SarahMc said:

then it occurred to me on my drive home -- maybe I could agree to increase to 120 mg and then just...not? Like tell him I'm taking it and just keep taking 90?

Absolutely!

41 minutes ago, SarahMc said:

I'm on medical leave from work and am receiving disability insurance. My insurer talks to my medical providers and I risk getting cut off if my psychiatrist tells the insurer that I'm refusing treatment or whatever

This is what will happen since he is the treating doctor. Insurance doesn't care about your health...just about getting you back to work.

I am on disability through the BC government and my psychiatrist diagnosed me with serotonin withdrawal, so that paved the way for my GP to fill out the disability claim. With the province, there is no follow up, once you are on, you are on.

46 minutes ago, SarahMc said:

Has anyone been in a similar situation before??

I have a friend who had his drug poop out. Then they put him on 2 other drugs and cold turkey the original drug. He is on work disability. He as well has to follow "orders" or be cut off. Though I have told him what is going on, he leaves it to his wife. They had been trying to lessen the meds themselves, without telling the doctor. Now the doctor has done a complete switch from effexor to prozac. He has had no choice because no one will prescribe for him due to being under the care of a dr for disability.

So my suggestion is to sound as compliant as possible, agree, and get stable by following through with the suggestions here.

I hate we are stuck in this position.... ❤️🙏

2 minutes ago, LostinCanada said:

Absolutely!

This is what will happen since he is the treating doctor. Insurance doesn't care about your health...just about getting you back to work.

I am on disability through the BC government and my psychiatrist diagnosed me with serotonin withdrawal, so that paved the way for my GP to fill out the disability claim. With the province, there is no follow up, once you are on, you are on.

I have a friend who had his drug poop out. Then they put him on 2 other drugs and cold turkey the original drug. He is on work disability. He as well has to follow "orders" or be cut off. Though I have told him what is going on, he leaves it to his wife. They had been trying to lessen the meds themselves, without telling the doctor. Now the doctor has done a complete switch from effexor to prozac. He has had no choice because no one will prescribe for him due to being under the care of a dr for disability.

So my suggestion is to sound as compliant as possible, agree, and get stable by following through with the suggestions here.

I hate we are stuck in this position.... ❤️🙏

Thank you LIC xxx

You've had good advice from others.

You might be able to convince your psychiatrist with research papers, guidelines from countries where withdrawal is more recognised and so on, but this may also not work. It's difficult to judge how open minded your psychiatrist is likely to be.