Yes, @Pokey449, many cortisol spikes are possible during the night. I have them the night long: weaknesses, nausea, sensation of depression, hot waves. These cortisol rushes continue also during the day for me, but less often.

Svetla

@skamen UGGHHH!! I wish every psychiatrist that prescribes these semi-poisons had the opportunity to go through their own WD process to see what those of us here are going through . I do believe in moderation ADs can help people & save lives but they are completely OVER PRESCRIBED!  My psych PA should have NEVER put me on doxepin on top of the mirtazapine I was on.  BUT!!!!! I should have known better to allow it to happen. At least my psych PA is kind, caring and willing to work with me to taper off the doxepin. Some of them just want to give you yet another pill. 

@Chippy I hope it’s ok I that I deliberately hailed you this morning. Being a moderator I value your knowledge/input. 
I can’t seem to get on a smooth path.  Maybe I’m being unrealistic in how soon I think it should happen.  Prior to the dose that I’m at now I was at 30mg for 65 days, then at 29mg for 23 days after which Dr H told me to up dose 0.5mg. I’ve now been at 29.6mg (0.6mg was easier to measure accurately) for 27 days. So I’ve been at a dose of between 30-29mg ( 1mg or 3% difference) for 115days and I’m still waking up multiple x in the night or morning feeling awful. This morning my whole body literally felt sick from I guess what was a cortisol spike??? I did take a Mg glycinate cap last night. It didn’t help, perhaps made things worse??

But im beside myself. I can’t plan a life anymore not knowing from one day to the next how I’m going feel. Yes I made myself take a walk even though I didn’t feel up to it. It was a slog. Some days I’m ok, but most of the time exhausted & feeling unwell. I guess I think if this keeps going on & on something is going to “break” & I’m going to become very ill or die.
I still worry it’s the doxepin/mirtazapine combo of & by itself that’s making me sick more so than WD from the doxepin. I’ve tapered meds before & never had this much trouble but maybe I’m kindled?? 
But I don’t know what else I can do other than keep holding at my current dose & hope things smooth out eventually. 
Any advice or thoughts would be much appreciated 

Thanks 

Pokey 

 

 

1 minute ago, Pokey449 said:

@Chippy I hope it’s ok I that I deliberately hailed you this morning. Being a moderator I value your knowledge/input. 
I can’t seem to get on a smooth path.  Maybe I’m being unrealistic in how soon I think it should happen.  Prior to the dose that I’m at now I was at 30mg for 65 days, then at 29mg for 23 days after which Dr H told me to up dose 0.5mg. I’ve now been at 29.6mg (0.6mg was easier to measure accurately) for 27 days. So I’ve been at a dose of between 30-29mg ( 1mg or 3% difference) for 115days and I’m still waking up multiple x in the night or morning feeling awful. This morning my whole body literally felt sick from I guess what was a cortisol spike??? I did take a Mg glycinate cap last night. It didn’t help, perhaps made things worse??

But im beside myself. I can’t plan a life anymore not knowing from one day to the next how I’m going feel. Yes I made myself take a walk even though I didn’t feel up to it. It was a slog. Some days I’m ok, but most of the time exhausted & feeling unwell. I guess I think if this keeps going on & on something is going to “break” & I’m going to become very ill or die.
I still worry it’s the doxepin/mirtazapine combo of & by itself that’s making me sick more so than WD from the doxepin. I’ve tapered meds before & never had this much trouble but maybe I’m kindled?? 
But I don’t know what else I can do other than keep holding at my current dose & hope things smooth out eventually. 
Any advice or thoughts would be much appreciated 

Thanks 

Pokey 

 

 

Hey mate

 

It is never a problem to ask for me mate. Im sorry you are having such a hard time I really am.

 

I think you kinda answered you own question there. Tapering ok in the past is not a sign that future tapers will go well. In fact previous tapers, especially if they are fast, prime us for problems later from what we can tell.

 

You haven't been sat still on a dose without moving times as yet for very long at all. In terms of how much dose is destabilising, I have seen people move doses by tiny amounts and it cause issues. Unfortunately this can happen when our nervous systems become so sensitive.

 

It can take a long long time think months to start to stablise. Just look at @Raymond at the moment. He is working very hard to get ready to taper and has been for some time.

 

I think unfortunately I don't see you have any other choice other than to sit tight at your current times and doses and let your body do it's work. I know it is an awful process sometimes and Im sorry you are suffering so badly.

 

Chippy

Thanks @Chippy unfortunately i think you are correct in that all I can do is HOLD until things smooth out, unless I die first. The sad thing is Im seeing life pass me by at a fast pace and I’m nearly 77. Way fewer days ahead of me than behind me. Tick tick tick!!!!🫩

But one more question. Can you have cortisol issues more than once in a single night? I wake up sometimes 3x in one night feeling like I’m flushed in adrenaline. 

1 hour ago, Pokey449 said:

Thanks @Chippy unfortunately i think you are correct in that all I can do is HOLD until things smooth out, unless I die first. The sad thing is Im seeing life pass me by at a fast pace and I’m nearly 77. Way fewer days ahead of me than behind me. Tick tick tick!!!!🫩

But one more question. Can you have cortisol issues more than once in a single night? I wake up sometimes 3x in one night feeling like I’m flushed in adrenaline. 

These drugs rob all of us of life. I can understand when you are older this must feel frightening. I think of dear B and all his retirement plans scuppered. He is supposed to be put on his bike this summer living his best life. 🤬

It’s what is seen. Some wake with morning anxiety that lingers most the day. Often as it burns off through out the day people report feeling better. 
 

It’s all awful. Thing to do now is not make it worse by tweaking things. I know it’s bad. But it can be worse and you don’t want that. 😔

 

Can you note in your signature when you moved your dose times so we have a record?

1 hour ago, Pokey449 said:

Can you have cortisol issues more than once in a single night? I wake up sometimes 3x in one night feeling like I’m flushed in adrenaline

Hello @Pokey449, to answer this question, yes, you can have cortisol spike multiple times.  Our body natural cortisol start making our body to wake up around 4am as we gradually wake up.  When our CNS is sensitive, cortisol spike will happen with adrenaline, anxiety, and many other symptoms multiple times per night.

 

My first 5 months, I couldn't sleep more than 4 hours.  I was waking up with high anxiety, high intrusive thoughts, and multiple times at night.  Then, it got better and better.  I was still waking up couple of times, but no rush or adrenaline symptoms.  Between month 5 to 10 , I was going to sleep around 10pm and will wake up at 530am.l with no cortisol issues.   Then months ten, I hit another wall and cortisol spike came back. It wasn't intense as my first months, but it was bad enough for me to wake up with panics couple of time during the night.

 

I'm at month 15 on this journey now, and I still wake up 530am, but in the last week, I have been able to go back to sleep and sleep until 730am or little longer.   It took me all these months to be here now.

 

My suggestion, do not make changes for a long time.  It will gradually fades away and little by little you might be able to sleep longer.  

 

One trick that you can try which I did in the beginning was to lay in bed but semi sitting.  It can trick your mind that you are awake but still in bed.  Try and see if it works 

 

These medications are terrible and affects our internal clock, but the good news is that it will gets better in time...

2 hours ago, Pokey449 said:

Thanks @Chippy unfortunately i think you are correct in that all I can do is HOLD until things smooth out, unless I die first. The sad thing is Im seeing life pass me by at a fast pace and I’m nearly 77. Way fewer days ahead of me than behind me. Tick tick tick!!!!🫩

But one more question. Can you have cortisol issues more than once in a single night? I wake up sometimes 3x in one night feeling like I’m flushed in adrenaline. 

@Pokey449.. once thing you will notice that your cortisol is improving is that you gradually sleep even 15 minutes more even with adrenaline.   Then, your sleep increases and adrenaline starts to fade away.  

@Raymond @Chippy the adrenaline sure didn’t fade away much last night. I awoke about 3:00 I think, I try not to clock watch. But I felt like I’d had a dose of adrenaline injected directly into my veins. I  was very restless, a creepy crawly feeling throughout my body. couldn’t lay still. When I would self massage my body it felt like pins & needles under my skin. An awful sickening feeling. I fidgeted, tossed & turned. Got up & went to my recliner for a while.  Went back to bed. Think I fell asleep for a short period to awaken again at 530 still restless and nauseous.  An hour later & after breakfast I still feel unwell. 
Is there any way to minimize this happening. It’s god awful!!!! 

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, Pokey449 said:

@Raymond @Chippy the adrenaline sure didn’t fade away much last night. I awoke about 3:00 I think, I try not to clock watch. But I felt like I’d had a dose of adrenaline injected directly into my veins. I  was very restless, a creepy crawly feeling throughout my body. couldn’t lay still. When I would self massage my body it felt like pins & needles under my skin. An awful sickening feeling. I fidgeted, tossed & turned. Got up & went to my recliner for a while.  Went back to bed. Think I fell asleep for a short period to awaken again at 530 still restless and nauseous.  An hour later & after breakfast I still feel unwell. 
Is there any way to minimize this happening. It’s god awful!!!! 

Unfortunately it’s about coping strategies and self care mainly whilst you heal/stablise. 
 

As cortisol is the sleep hormone it’s good to keep your sleep hygiene pristine. 
 

- Same bed time each day

- Same wake time each day 

- Manage light exposure am and pm

- Earlier bed time can help ‘beat’ the cortisol sometimes. 
 

This is the link to sa’s coping strategies area. Maybe have dive and see if anything is relevant for you in there. 
 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/forums/forum/8-symptoms-and-self-care/

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Pokey449 said:

@Raymond @Chippy the adrenaline sure didn’t fade away much last night. I awoke about 3:00 I think, I try not to clock watch. But I felt like I’d had a dose of adrenaline injected directly into my veins. I  was very restless, a creepy crawly feeling throughout my body. couldn’t lay still. When I would self massage my body it felt like pins & needles under my skin. An awful sickening feeling. I fidgeted, tossed & turned. Got up & went to my recliner for a while.  Went back to bed. Think I fell asleep for a short period to awaken again at 530 still restless and nauseous.  An hour later & after breakfast I still feel unwell. 
Is there any way to minimize this happening. It’s god awful!!!! 

 

 

 

Sorry to hear about your struggles.... Unfortunately as @Chippy stated, you will need to find ways to coupe with the symptoms. It's really hard but trust me, it will improve slowly in time.

 

Cortisol gets really gets mess up in withdrawal and it only gets better in time.  

 

I had to learn to follow my body.  There were many times, I had to go sleep at 8pm to get two hours of sleep.  Other days, I went to sleep 10pm and woke up two or three hours later...it is hard and difficult, but trust me, it will get better....

 

Hanging in there....time, acceptance patience are the keys to healing.

 

I read and watch so many programs during my sleeping struggles..

 

Going through this fire is the only way out....very sad for us...

@Raymond @Chippy currently I’m holding at 29.6mg until all this hell calms down and I get stable & in a window.   This is not my first taper but it is my worst.  With as much trouble as I’ve been having with this taper at my age, 76, I’ve decided im not planning to try and get to zero. Life has become to short. I don’t want to spend what time I have left consumed with tapering off a damned drug and being in this kind of misery the rest of my life. I need to do some living & this ain’t living.  I’d honestly rather die than deal with this shit the rest of my life. So My goal is to get to 25mg and stay there the rest of my life. Horowitz thought this was a reasonable compromise. BUT the challenge is how do I get to 25mg even without dealing with this cortisol hell?? 
I assume it’s a matter of holding where I’m at until a window & the cortisol issue goes away as well as other bothersome WD symptoms, get good & stable and THEN proceed on very slowly time wise with small cuts towards my goal of 25mg?? 

8 minutes ago, Pokey449 said:

@Raymond @Chippy currently I’m holding at 29.6mg until all this hell calms down and I get stable & in a window.   This is not my first taper but it is my worst.  With as much trouble as I’ve been having with this taper at my age, 76, I’ve decided im not planning to try and get to zero. Life has become to short. I don’t want to spend what time I have left consumed with tapering off a damned drug and being in this kind of misery the rest of my life. I need to do some living & this ain’t living.  I’d honestly rather die than deal with this shit the rest of my life. So My goal is to get to 25mg and stay there the rest of my life. Horowitz thought this was a reasonable compromise. BUT the challenge is how do I get to 25mg even without dealing with this cortisol hell?? 
I assume it’s a matter of holding where I’m at until a window & the cortisol issue goes away as well as other bothersome WD symptoms, get good & stable and THEN proceed on very slowly time wise with small cuts towards my goal of 25mg?? 

Essentially yes mate. I would focus on stable first and then make some choices. I think you are right being comfortable should be your goal rather than zero.

1 hour ago, Pokey449 said:

@Raymond @Chippy currently I’m holding at 29.6mg until all this hell calms down and I get stable & in a window.   This is not my first taper but it is my worst.  With as much trouble as I’ve been having with this taper at my age, 76, I’ve decided im not planning to try and get to zero. Life has become to short. I don’t want to spend what time I have left consumed with tapering off a damned drug and being in this kind of misery the rest of my life. I need to do some living & this ain’t living.  I’d honestly rather die than deal with this shit the rest of my life. So My goal is to get to 25mg and stay there the rest of my life. Horowitz thought this was a reasonable compromise. BUT the challenge is how do I get to 25mg even without dealing with this cortisol hell?? 
I assume it’s a matter of holding where I’m at until a window & the cortisol issue goes away as well as other bothersome WD symptoms, get good & stable and THEN proceed on very slowly time wise with small cuts towards my goal of 25mg?? 

Understandable.   Getting to a level where you can also live is what your goal should be.  

 

It is hell what we are going through.....but keep holding.  It will take months to see improvement.   

 

28 minutes ago, Raymond said:

 

It is hell what we are going through.....but keep holding.  It will take months to see improvement.   

 

 

MONTHS?!?!  God I hope not!!!!

2 previous tapers in my life went well & quickly. No real issues. Boy, not this one!!!

2 hours ago, Pokey449 said:

 

MONTHS?!?!  God I hope not!!!!

2 previous tapers in my life went well & quickly. No real issues. Boy, not this one!!!

Unfortunately, it depends the medication and time being on it.  I have 15 months on this journey after I reinstated 5mg paraxotine after cold turkey and still not feeling normal.   However, I am like between 80 to 85% normal and the last few days, few things improved slowly.

 

The good news is that I can somehow enjoy few things in life.  Most of my symptoms is in the morning hours and then, it gets better in the afternoons....

 

I'm holding my taper to allow my CNS to be stronger so I'm hoping that my Tapering journey down will be smoother...

@Pokey449 I have been reading your story and I just want to say my heart goes out to you. I am hoping you get some kind of relief soon. I too am so frustrated and angry that psychiatrists and doctors give out these meds rapidly without any conversation with the patient about the debilitating withdrawal effects these horrid medications cause.  Continue to be strong. Wishing you well. I look forward to your updates. 

Thanks @Journey  As far as I’m concerned I was STUPID for allowing my psych PA to put me on the doxepin. But my health history considered he should have known better too. Unfortunately the only thing psychiatrists know how to do is give you a pill. I have no choice but to taper off the poison but I fear a “normal life” going forward may be a memory. 

@Chippy the cortisol spike I had last night, actually early this morning, was not as bad as the previous night. 
Is it known what causes these spikes in cortisol?  Almost a year into my taper why now and are there any immediate things one can do to eliminate or minimize them? 
 

 

18 minutes ago, Pokey449 said:

@Chippy the cortisol spike I had last night, actually early this morning, was not as bad as the previous night. 
Is it known what causes these spikes in cortisol?  Almost a year into my taper why now and are there any immediate things one can do to eliminate or minimize them? 
 

 

Good it wasn’t as bad mate. There is no logic to any of it unfortunately. Symptoms tend to wax and wane as the brain adjusts and heals. It’s a difficult and long winded process that you can’t speed up. Acceptance, patience, distraction and time. 

Would magnesium & fish oil be of any benefit? I’ve noted it being discussed here often to help modulate WD sxs. 

Hey @Pokey449

 

It’s good to hear that your cortisol spike eased a little bit last night. I hope you’re managing ok. 
As for magnesium and cod liver oil, some have found them helpful but there are a few who have found them activating. For me personally, cod liver oil was horrendous. 
I’d suggest that if you feel like you’d like to try them, just try one at a time, start with a very small dose to test the water so to speak. If you have no issues then slowly build the dose over time. Be aware, cod liver oil takes a few days to build up in your system, when you start it I would stay at your starting dose for a week before slowly increasing. 
I hope this helps. 

@NBJ71 thanks for the tips. Ill give them a try.

Last night and this morning was absolutely horrible. I struggled all night to sleep. Awoke multiple times feeling restless, agitated, very unwell & exhausted. I literally felt sick and that I was on the edge of my life I felt so bad. Using my cpap was impossible. I burst awake the last time about 630 and had to get up out of the puddle of misery that I was laying in. I literally could hardly walk once I got up as I was so stiff, in pain, woozy & unsteady. In 76 years  I don’t think I’ve ever felt as bad in my life as I felt this morning. Now that I’ve been up for a while & had a light breakfast & herbal tea I feel a bit better but I’m not going to be worth much today. Its going to be a RECLINER day. 
This “syndrome” of symptoms seems like it’s been getting progressively worse over time. What use to be a bit uncomfortable & irritating is now more frequent & intense, miserable & debilitating. I’m concerned/wondering if this is more complicated than just WD. 
I have my annual wellness checkup next week with labs. Hopefully that will shed some light one way or another.
in the meantime it’s hard to have any sort of life with all this. 
 

36 minutes ago, Pokey449 said:

Last night and this morning was absolutely horrible. I struggled all night to sleep. Awoke multiple times feeling restless, agitated, very unwell & exhausted. I literally felt sick and that I was on the edge of my life I felt so bad. Using my cpap was impossible. I burst awake the last time about 630 and had to get up out of the puddle of misery that I was laying in. I literally could hardly walk once I got up as I was so stiff, in pain, woozy & unsteady. In 76 years  I don’t think I’ve ever felt as bad in my life as I felt this morning. Now that I’ve been up for a while & had a light breakfast & herbal tea I feel a bit better but I’m not going to be worth much today. Its going to be a RECLINER day. 
This “syndrome” of symptoms seems like it’s been getting progressively worse over time. What use to be a bit uncomfortable & irritating is now more frequent & intense, miserable & debilitating. I’m concerned/wondering if this is more complicated than just WD. 
I have my annual wellness checkup next week with labs. Hopefully that will shed some light one way or another.
in the meantime it’s hard to have any sort of life with all this. 
 

I’m so sorry you’re suffering so much.

I’m glad your wellness checkup is coming up soon. ❤️

 

I never knew I could feel this horrendous either

Mirtazapine never did anything like this to me until I started withdrawing from it.

it’s just beyond anything I could’ve ever imagined