44 minutes ago, Pokey449 said:

Morning @Chippy I think I should fire my psychologist and hire you instead 😁 Much of what you say is good advice which I agree with. Just

@Chippy definitely found his calling as a therapist! 😊

Morning @Chippy @Luke et al. I’m sitting here struggling to keep awake enough to write this message. I can’t keep my eyes open , I keep trying to nod off but I can’t actually fall into a state of sleep. Exhausted but can’t sleep. It was similar after waking at 3:00 this morning. My body was in some mental/physical state between wakefulness & sleep. Plus I was in great physical distress upon awakening. Couldn’t get enough breath with my cpap mask on. Had to yank it. Then lay there the rest of the night tossing & turning Because my body wouldn’t lay still (Akathisia) & wouldn’t sleep. Miserable!!! Usually I feel better after I get up & have breakfast. Not today. Today is not good. First I fear I’m going to die then I wish I would so to escape this hell. 110 days at the same dose and no reliable daily/nightly relief. I’m about done.

I am sorry to read @Pokey449 after your better day yesterday. Sounds truly awful and no respite in the day. Terrible.

Try to apply the things I mentioned before, I know it is hard to do when in it, but really that is when you need these skills, to get through the rough days. I know so many of your days are bad atm, but all the more reason to look into coping skills and master them best you can. Have a look for Youtube videos on WD and acceptance there are some in our Acceptance post in the Coping Skills section. Absolutley vital IMO.

18 minutes ago, Pokey449 said:

Morning @Chippy @Luke et al. I’m sitting here struggling to keep awake enough to write this message. I can’t keep my eyes open , I keep trying to nod off but I can’t actually fall into a state of sleep. Exhausted but can’t sleep. It was similar after waking at 3:00 this morning. My body was in some mental/physical state between wakefulness & sleep. Plus I was in great physical distress upon awakening. Couldn’t get enough breath with my cpap mask on. Had to yank it. Then lay there the rest of the night tossing & turning Because my body wouldn’t lay still (Akathisia) & wouldn’t sleep. Miserable!!! Usually I feel better after I get up & have breakfast. Not today. Today is not good. First I fear I’m going to die then I wish I would so to escape this hell. 110 days at the same dose and no reliable daily/nightly relief. I’m about done.

Sorry to hear @Pokey449 . This journey is definitely terrible, but I can promise you that things will get better. After 18 months on this journey, I just started to feel better two months ago. The healing process is not linear and will have ups and downs. Windows eventually become longer and waves shorter.

Hanging in there. Your body knows how to heal. Keep moving forward. We are here to support you...

@Raymond thanks for the encouragement. I keep daily dosing & symptoms notes. The only pattern I see is a pattern of chaos: a good night/day, so so day/night or terrible night/day. Symptoms are all over the place. I’ve been on a single dose, a split dose, now moving back to a single. That zigging & zagging may be what’s got me discombobulated. Once I get back to a single full dose I need to stay put.

I’m home alone. My wife & kids are in Ohio. I’m desperate to see them and not be alone but travel now is out & Im wondering when if ever I can travel again. I’m really tired of being alone. It’s not healthy for me either,but I don’t want to be like this around my family either. Feeling a little frantic today. I desperately need some decent sleep.

@Chippy i watched a couple videos on acceptance as a therapy. I guess it’s along the same lines or based on ACT. ACCEPTANCE COMMITMENT THERAPY which I’ve worked with a therapist in the past on my anxiety issues. The two videos I watched focused acceptance as a tool for chronic pain. I couldn’t find any such videos on dealing with WD symptoms specifically. WD involves both physical & psychological sxs. Is there any such video you can point me to that focuses on the symptoms/misery we all here are dealing with?

I’m in a panic today. Ive tried different options to make things better. I’ve tried taking my full dose at 8 am. Splitting it between 8am & 12pm, 8 am & 4pm. Stability has been elusive at all those options. Maybe I hadn’t given each option enough time????? . Now, per Dr Hs advice im in the process of returning to a single dose. I’m going slow to achieve this as painless as I can but I’m struggling. I’m scared it won’t work, that I’ll never stabilize. Maybe I’m terrorizing myself, I don’t know, but I’m losing hope I’ll ever be well again. Before there were options

To try. Now it seems I’ve tried them all & there’s none left. I’m terrified today.

Don’t be scared @Pokey449 thats what acceptance teaches us. Learning to just let go. Make the changes you can and when you get to a single dose just sit there. Accept what comes along. Don’t think about what if this and that and tomorrow or what ever. Just sit with the day. Bad or good. What ever that day is. Just be at peace with it. Give no thought to the next day. Or the next week. Only job. Deal with the day. Breathe and be at peace with it all. Eases the suffering so much.

@Chippy well I got more sleep last night. That’s a good thing. I woke up both at 3 & 6 which is nothing out of the ordinary even for a “normal” person. But how I felt both times upon awakening, especially at 6 was anything but normal. I awoke at 6 feeling absolutely awful. Groggy, heavy body feeling, sickish, stiff, nausea, whole body pain, Akathisia, slight SOB. Paresthesia in my left shoulder, arm & hand. Left shoulder pain ( I have known bursitis & tendinitis in my L shoulder) but wonder “is this my heart”??

All these sxs dissipate after I get up but they are getting more frequent & intense.

My smart watch is not showing anything of concern. These sxs didn’t happen unfortunately when I had my sleep study last week. Whatever is going on it seems to be getting worse. I actually considered calling 911 (EMS) this morning but knew by the time they got here or by the time I got to the the ER the sxs would be gone.

Something abnormal & unhealthy is going on in my sleep but I don’t know what to do about it. At least I feel better today after breakfast than yesterday. If I die in my sleep so be it.

18 hours ago, Pokey449 said:

well I got more sleep last night.

That is good news.

18 hours ago, Pokey449 said:

I awoke at 6 feeling absolutely awful. Groggy, heavy body feeling, sickish, stiff, nausea, whole body pain, Akathisia, slight SOB. Paresthesia in my left shoulder, arm & hand. Left shoulder pain ( I have known bursitis & tendinitis in my L shoulder) but wonder “is this my heart”??

Im sorry to read mate.

18 hours ago, Pokey449 said:

At least I feel better today after breakfast than yesterday.

Good to hear.

This all really does sound like WD to me Pokey, if the drug was effecting your heart you would be unwell when you are awake. It is very common to wake feeling awful. I am sorry you are going through this. Hope tonight is less of a issue for you. You deserve a good nights sleep.

I got 6.5 hrs sleep last night for a pleasant change. Sleep score of 85 on my Fitbit watch this morning. My heart #s looked ok last night and this morning. Yet I still feel shitty, amiss, out of whack. . Maybe it is all WD. But still I feel, my intuition says something is very amiss.

10 hours ago, Pokey449 said:

I got 6.5 hrs sleep last night for a pleasant change. Sleep score of 85 on my Fitbit watch this morning. My heart #s looked ok last night and this morning. Yet I still feel shitty, amiss, out of whack. . Maybe it is all WD. But still I feel, my intuition says something is very amiss.

Good to hear @Pokey449 Hope more of the same and better to follow. Don't forget the process can be very up and down so some worse days doesn't mean things are not getting there for you. Time is our friend.

These drugs can cause all sorts. You're taking a couple.

Mirtazapine by itself caused total destruction of my health so it wouldn't surprise me if this was all just the effects of these drugs.

@Luke

14 hours ago, Luke said:

Mirtazapine by itself caused total destruction of my health so it wouldn't surprise me if this was all just the effects of these drugs.

@Luke are you saying you think my symptoms could be adverse affects of the drugs themselves alone as opposed to being purely WD sxs? Theres a definite difference.

I’ve been at the same dose for 110 days and I’m having sxs that have seemed to have gotten worse over time, not better. They seem to have plateaued however but remain persistent & unnerving. To be 100% honest I’m in fear for my life. I think I’m being over sedated at night is why I’m waking up feeling so rotten, groggy, lethargic. I think my heart is being affected, given my sxs, and there’s not a damn thing I can do about it. The more I reduce the dose of the doxepin the more sedating it becomes.

9 hours ago, Pokey449 said:

@Luke

@Luke are you saying you think my symptoms could be adverse affects of the drugs themselves alone as opposed to being purely WD sxs? Theres a definite difference.

I’ve been at the same dose for 110 days and I’m having sxs that have seemed to have gotten worse over time, not better. They seem to have plateaued however but remain persistent & unnerving. To be 100% honest I’m in fear for my life. I think I’m being over sedated at night is why I’m waking up feeling so rotten, groggy, lethargic. I think my heart is being affected, given my sxs, and there’s not a damn thing I can do about it. The more I reduce the dose of the doxepin the more sedating it becomes.

@Pokey449 We know these drugs are not good for us, and it is completely possible the drugs are causing some harm, but as you know stopping them abruptly or tapering too quickly things could get alot worse. I don't think it's helpful to worry too much about the harm the drug may or may not be doing to you atm. Focus on one day at a time, try and get to a point where you can give a hold at that dose and not split a really good run, and see if things settle down. It's good things have plateaued in many ways, hopefully you can start to see things improve soon.

@Chippy i hear, appreciate and understand what you are saying. I’m going very slow at bringing the split dose back to a single dose. As of now only two hours is separating the two 1/2 doses. But I feel like I’m slowly slipping further down a hole by the day & I’m wearing out. I had a pretty decent night Tuesday night followed by a miserable night last night. Even yesterday after the decent nights sleep I was very tired & out of sorts but was able to go to the health club and do a couple things.

I truly think I’m having adverse affects from the drug(s) as opposed to WD sxs per se. If that in fact is the case no amount of time or being on a single dose will help. Last night laying in the dark I had a very ominous feeling about what was/is happening to me. I truly hope I’m wrong about that and your take & advice on the matter pans out.

I keep hoping for reaching stability so I can make a trip to be with my family. I keep postponing it. Yesterday I would have been able to travel/fly. Today I’m too exhausted to go to the grocery store 😩 It keeps zigging & zagging like that. Makes it hard to have life.

@Pokey449 I understand. I think until you give it a good run on a set dose you won't know. Even the amount of time you have been holding isn't very long just long. Some hold for 12-18 months before things settle. I know that seems awful but it's true.

I'm not saying the drugs aren't causing you issues, Im just saying I suspect its mainly WD. Mark H seems to agree and he is the best there is in this. Doesn't mean you are not having issues with the doses, but it's safer to try and settle than try to taper yourway out of it. I know you are having a rough time, but if you look around the site, it can get a lot worse if you start tapering whilst destablised!

@Chippy no I’m not going to try and taper while this is going on. That would be like pouring gas on the fire I know. I truly hope it is all WD sxs and things will finally settle. The alternative (adverse drug affect) would not bode well for a long term positive prognosis.

15 minutes ago, Pokey449 said:

That would be like pouring gas on the fire I know.

I agree

15 minutes ago, Pokey449 said:

The alternative (adverse drug affect) would not bode well for a long term positive prognosis.

I think it's best to try to deal with one thing at a time. Focus on WD for the minute. Acceptance, one day at a time my friend.

Man I keep feeling worse as the day progresses. Maybe Ill pick up when I take my first dose at 9:45am ......it is truly horrible what these drugs can do to a person. Pure hell that consumes a person's life....and friends and family have no way of understanding what we are going through. Its unbelievable unless you've lived it

@Chippy i am thinking about sending my local psych provider here an update on my status and the challenges im having. He’s a good guy. He doesn’t try to make me hurry to get off any of my medication & is very willing to work with me and let me go at my pace. I see him once every 3,months. He keeps me in prescriptions as needed and responds when I have questions or concerns.

But I’m wondering if I should tell him about my sessions with Horowitz? I don’t know if he’d be ok with that or feel threatened. Any thoughts?

11 hours ago, Pokey449 said:

@ i am thinking about sending my local psych provider here an update on my status and the challenges im having.

Personally I wouldn't involve him too much. Im sure he is a nice guy and supportive and so on, but he won't probably understand WD properly and there is nothing he can add to help you. You just need him to keep writing your prescriptions.

@Chippy My smart watch reported this morning that I got 7hrs of sleep last night with a sleep score of 86. 2hrs of REM and an hour of deep sleep. I should have felt pretty good this morning when I finally got up. But I didn’t.

I awoke first about 330 and felt ok ( I had slept through until then with my CPAP mask on) but had to get up to go to my recliner to relieve my nightly back pain that I get some nights.. Went back to bed & fell asleep w/o my cpap mask on. I seem to do that often. Which i shouldn’t. I just konk out. Awoke for the final time about 630. Felt awful!!!!

Got up, had breakfast continuing to feel bad and then finally started feeling better

about 8 but not like I’d should have after 7 hrs of sleep. Between 630 and 8 i attempted to get an EKG on my smart watch to see if I was possibly in AFIB. Couldn’t capture an EKG. Smart watch kept saying “inconclusive” but then finally at 8 upon feeling somewhat better I was able to get an EKG reported as “normal sinus rhythm”. But still not feeling well.

Hard to describe all the somatic symptoms ( headache, dry mouth, nausea, whole body pain, weird spotty pain & tingling in my left shoulder, arm & hand, overall malaise) & know for sure what’s going on, but given my sxs are very episodic I think there’s more to the picture than WD. In fact since my sxs are so episodic (occurring almost exclusively in the wee hours & lingering into the morning, but then easing after getting up) it reinforces my belief they are sxs due to an adverse drug affect.

A Google search on the use of mirtazapine & doxepin together indicates such a combination should be used with caution due to possible 1) over sedation, which I think is happening 2) anticholinergic affects like dry mouth & headache which I’m having and 3) should be avoided altogether by individuals with a history of heart arrhythmias, ie Afib which I have a history of ☹️

I personally should have researched all this more before allowing myself to take the doxepin BUT FOR SURE my psych provider and the psychopharmacologist he had review my case before taking the doxepin should have sure as hell caught my AFIB history and advised against my taking it. But here I am.

I’m increasingly of the opinion the Mirt/doxepin combo is over sedating me at night making my sleep apnea worse, especially when I’m off my cpap and potentially/likely affecting my heart in a negative way.

Question now is: what can I do about it??

I continue believe it’s more than garden variety WD that I’m experiencing.

I fear that my health, maybe even my life is at risk.

On 6/10/2026 at 11:22 PM, Pokey449 said:

@Luke

@Luke are you saying you think my symptoms could be adverse affects of the drugs themselves alone as opposed to being purely WD sxs? Theres a definite difference.

Maybe, it's difficult to know.

You indicated that you believe that due to your symptoms, it may not just be these drugs, and that something else is amiss.

The point I was trying to make is that just one of these drugs caused me significant disability for a long time, and total destruction of my health, and that in my opinion it's entirely possible that everything you're experiencing is as a direct result of reacting adversely to these drugs and/or changing doses of them.

@Luke Let’s say I am reacting adversely to one or both drugs. I don’t know what the hell can be done about it??? Can’t just stop either med. Doxepin supposedly gets more sedating below 25 mg. Guess I can stop the doxepin at 25mg and then taper the 7.5mg of mirtazapine except it’ll likely take the rest of my natural life to complete such tasks. I’m 77 and starting to think I’d just as soon die as to go through such drawn out misery. F’ing doctors have no comprehension of what these poisons can do to people.