3 hours ago, Pokey449 said:

traveling to be with family in the immediate future is for a visit but the plan is to move there permanently. I’m certainly not up to a big move now. I’ve made 4 big moves in my life. They are intense and stressful so I couldn’t handle that now. But worried I’ll ever be able to. But this being alone is not good. Takes me to dark thoughts.

I’ve done two other tapers in my past. Had no problems but this one is hell. It’s my own fault. I should have never allowed myself to get into this mess. But here I am.

I think biting the bullet would be beneficial in the long run since you've noted that feeling lonely intensifies the fear and anxiety. Obviously, do not push yourself for something you're not ready for, though. But I think you being less alone and having more support irl would be so beneficial

The only thing is my family and my closest friends really don’t understand what I’m dealing with. Their support can only go so far. It’s impossible for them to know how miserable this is. And there’s a part of me that I don’t want them to see me like this. I feel so pathetic often. But it would be less lonely being with my family.

4 minutes ago, Pokey449 said:

The only thing is my family and my closest friends really don’t understand what I’m dealing with. Their support can only go so far. It’s impossible for them to know how miserable this is. And there’s a part of me that I don’t want them to see me like this. I feel so pathetic often. But it would be less lonely being with my family.

My family can’t fathom what I’m going through, but I’ve learned to let them in so that I don’t feel so alone ❤️

2 hours ago, Pokey449 said:

The only thing is my family and my closest friends really don’t understand what I’m dealing with. Their support can only go so far. It’s impossible for them to know how miserable this is. And there’s a part of me that I don’t want them to see me like this. I feel so pathetic often. But it would be less lonely being with my family.

You're not pathetic. You're injured.

No one would think that if you'd snapped your legs in two or something you could see.

I see my psych provider tomorrow for a 3 month follow up appointment. I’ve provided him a 3 page update ahead of time with BF details of how I’m not doing well, what I think is going on based on knowledge gained here and from Dr Horowitz. My psych provider is a kind, caring and supportive guy. I just hope he won’t want me to try something drastic that won’t help. He like many psych providers is not well informed on getting people off these poisons. I mostly need him to keep writing the scripts so I can continue with my taper. I have told him my plan now based on Dr Hs advice is to get down to 25mg of the doxepin and stop the taper & stay there. I’m 77 and dont

Want to be going thru this hell for however many years I have left until I die. Today I feel like it’s killing me & I won’t make 78

@Pokey449 I am sorry you are suffering so much still.

You forget that even though you have been on the same dose for some time, you have moved doses around and had a number of dosing errors during that time. If you think about, how long you have been without incident it has not been very long at all. You have also had some better nights and some signs of things settling down for you too.

The overwhelming lesson in WD for pretty much all of us is to accept that we can't control this. If you can do that you remove the frustration I can hear in your post. It would not be possible to write a post like that if you learned to be at peace with the process. Radical acceptance seems impossible until you learn how I know, it is however the key to coping in WD. Accepting what has happened rather than resiting with new hypothesis or searching for new dose timings which is just fixing. So not fixing or resiting but allow and accept which brings peace and calms the nervous system, aiding healing and reducing suffering. You got this my friend.

@Chippy I appreciate your analysis and advice. My OCD tendencies cause me to keep looking for reassurance & a magic bullet to fix it I guess. I do think however there’s more to the picture than just WD. I’d have some of this pain w/o the WD. But then WD is making the pain worse. and I’m pretty confident my BIPAP therapy is exacerbating things OR WD is making my BIPAP therapy worse. Hard to tell which is the case. A trifecta of one thing affecting the other.

I see my psych provider this morning and my sleep doc this afternoon. Will let u know what they say.

Another restless night last night but better than the previous couple nights. At least I feel better today and am ok to drive. Today is more hopeful 🙏🙏

5 hours ago, Pokey449 said:

@Chippy I appreciate your analysis and advice. My OCD tendencies cause me to keep looking for reassurance & a magic bullet to fix it I guess. I do think however there’s more to the picture than just WD. I’d have some of this pain w/o the WD. But then WD is making the pain worse. and I’m pretty confident my BIPAP therapy is exacerbating things OR WD is making my BIPAP therapy worse. Hard to tell which is the case. A trifecta of one thing affecting the other.

I see my psych provider this morning and my sleep doc this afternoon. Will let u know what they say.

Another restless night last night but better than the previous couple nights. At least I feel better today and am ok to drive. Today is more hopeful 🙏🙏

You got this Pokey!

I have OCD too and am very analytical and try to think or fight my way out of things and tried to with this at first but it's just not possible. We got you <3

18 hours ago, Pokey449 said:

@Chippy I appreciate your analysis and advice. My OCD tendencies cause me to keep looking for reassurance & a magic bullet to fix it I guess.

It is good you recognise this mate.

18 hours ago, Pokey449 said:

I do think however there’s more to the picture than just WD. I

This is possible of course, be careful not to use this rational as an excuse to avoid tackling your job of not resisting.

18 hours ago, Pokey449 said:

I’d have some of this pain w/o the WD. But then WD is making the pain worse. and I’m pretty confident my BIPAP therapy is exacerbating things OR WD is making my BIPAP therapy worse. Hard to tell which is the case. A trifecta of one thing affecting the other.

I see my psych provider this morning and my sleep doc this afternoon. Will let u know what they say.

It is worth checking these things out, and WD can make things you already have worse for sure. Remember that if this is the case and there is still nothing that can be done, than it is basically the same thing, WD is the cause of your worsening existing condition and acceptance appiles here too.

We all as humans have the default to fix and loop and worry about things. It is an active and continued practice to choose to work on acceptance and seek out the peace. I believe it is there for everyone. It does take a little work, if you are looking for solutions, IMO this is where you will find it mate.

18 hours ago, Pokey449 said:

Another restless night last night but better than the previous couple nights. At least I feel better today and am ok to drive. Today is more hopeful 🙏🙏

I am so glad to hear you are better than you were and you got more rest. I hope this continues tonight for you my friend.

@Chippy @cherrysquid i had two good appointments yesterday. One with my psych provider who is fully supportive of what I’m doing. He’s not trying to rush me or give me another pill. I shared with him that I had had sessions with Dr Horowitz and he was fine with that. He wanted to know what Horowitz recommended and concurred that it was good advice.

My other appointment was as with my sleep docs nurse practitioner (NP). She spent a good amount of time reviewing my case, asked lots of questions. We had a good back n forth and she actually listened to me. Was very thoughtful and agreed she needed to talk with my sleep doc to get clarification on his thinking about my case. Talked about next steps. She agrees that my sleep is messed up but not sure what exams happening. She thought it very possible my Bipap therapy and my WD issues are interacting, each affecting the other. . She will get back to me on next steps. Probably another sleep study.

So two positive experiences for a change with our healthcare system which was a nice surprise for a change. So many times I feel like I’m rushed in and out and nobody really listens as if they “ know it all”

I had another crappy night last night but not as bad as it could be. Maybe???? I’m starting to slowwwwly improve a little bit. 🤞🤞🤞🤞

1 minute ago, Pokey449 said:

@Chippy @cherrysquid i had two good appointments yesterday. One with my psych provider who is fully supportive of what I’m doing. He’s not trying to rush me or give me another pill. I shared with him that I had had sessions with Dr Horowitz and he was fine with that. He wanted to know what Horowitz recommended and concurred that it was good advice.

My other appointment was as with my sleep docs nurse practitioner (NP). She spent a good amount of time reviewing my case, asked lots of questions. We had a good back n forth and she actually listened to me. Was very thoughtful and agreed she needed to talk with my sleep doc to get clarification on his thinking about my case. Talked about next steps. She agrees that my sleep is messed up but not sure what exams happening. She thought it very possible my Bipap therapy and my WD issues are interacting, each affecting the other. . She will get back to me on next steps. Probably another sleep study.

So two positive experiences for a change with our healthcare system which was a nice surprise for a change. So many times I feel like I’m rushed in and out and nobody really listens as if they “ know it all”

I had another crappy night last night but not as bad as it could be. Maybe???? I’m starting to slowwwwly improve a little bit. 🤞🤞🤞🤞

Great news Pokey! You'll get there, even if its a snails pace.

@Chippy i heard back from my sleep nurse practitioner(NP) today. She is suggesting yet another sleep study 😩 since I only slept 3 hours during the last study. They say they need more data to assess what’s going on. The concern is I’m having central apneas, which may be due to the combination of the mirtazapine & doxepin in my system. However Horowitz told me he didn’t think that was possible. AI disagrees with his assessment however. Doxepin & mirtazapine are both sedating 🤔

Anyway, the NP wants to give me Ambien for the proposed sleep study so I can be sure to sleep for enough time. Seems to me that might add more fuel to a fire that might already be burning. Don’t know what it would do to my taper/WD issues. It’s an entirely different med and may not not cause an issue but I need to research that more. Really tired of dealing with this damned cpap shit.

@Pokey449 I think it's great to you have a doctor who is probably a bit more open-minded. If he knows for Horowitz he is maybe more familiar with less meds approach.

But, sorry to comment something mentioned long ago, but this seems crazy to me. 275£ for something so unproven and questionable like hyperbolic tapering? What if someone some day will prove that he was wrong and hyperbolic tapering and his receptor-occupancy approach is totally wrong? Will he return all his earned money or will he say "ups"?

Edited August 5Aug 5 by The Dust

24 minutes ago, Pokey449 said:

@Chippy i heard back from my sleep nurse practitioner(NP) today. She is suggesting yet another sleep study 😩 since I only slept 3 hours during the last study. They say they need more data to assess what’s going on. The concern is I’m having central apneas, which may be due to the combination of the mirtazapine & doxepin in my system. However Horowitz told me he didn’t think that was possible. AI disagrees with his assessment however. Doxepin & mirtazapine are both sedating 🤔

Anyway, the NP wants to give me Ambien for the proposed sleep study so I can be sure to sleep for enough time. Seems to me that might add more fuel to a fire that might already be burning. Don’t know what it would do to my taper/WD issues. It’s an entirely different med and may not not cause an issue but I need to research that more. Really tired of dealing with this damned cpap shit.

Another sleep study is good! You can find out more about what is making you sleep so badly.

I dont blame you for being sick and tired you've had a really rough time thats normal and human to feel so sick. But you'll get there and we're here for you the whole way

No another sleep study is not good. I hate em. I can’t sleep with all that stuff hooked up to me. The only way I can sleep in a lab is to drug me. I’ve had 4 lab studies. 2 of them I slept only because they gave me Valium for one, Ambien for the other but B I wasn’t tapering off an AD. The other two studies I had I didn’t sleep at all in one and only 3 hrs for the other.

They want to give me Ambien for this study. I don’t know what it will do to my tapering sxs. I don’t need things messed up any more than it already is. Coukdc Make em worse?? Also putting Ambien in me on top of doxepin & mirtazapine may make me very sedated and possibly make my apnea worse, even create central apneas- which when your brain tells your respiration center-don’t breathe.

I’m not crazy about the idea of another sleep study.

8 hours ago, Pokey449 said:

NP wants to give me Ambien for the proposed sleep study

@Pokey449 this is ridiculous!! IF they have a theory that you are getting central apnoeas, why would they give you a drug that can cause respiratory depression?? Withdrawal aside, for any patient, this would defeat the purpose of the study. It would essentially produce the symptom they are investigating, which hardly makes for an accurate test. I would pose this question to that stupid NP.

10 hours ago, Pokey449 said:

Anyway, the NP wants to give me Ambien for the proposed sleep study so I can be sure to sleep for enough time. Seems to me that might add more fuel to a fire that might already be burning. Don’t know what it would do to my taper/WD issues. It’s an entirely different med and may not not cause an issue but I need to research that more. Really tired of dealing with this damned cpap shit.

100% do not take this. Like fuel on the fire my friend.

Also how can they truly study how you are sleeping whilst knocking you out with a drug. You won't be sleeping anything like the same as you normally would do! So stupid!

10 hours ago, Pokey449 said:

No another sleep study is not good. I hate em. I can’t sleep with all that stuff hooked up to me. The only way I can sleep in a lab is to drug me. I’ve had 4 lab studies. 2 of them I slept only because they gave me Valium for one, Ambien for the other but B I wasn’t tapering off an AD. The other two studies I had I didn’t sleep at all in one and only 3 hrs for the other.

They want to give me Ambien for this study. I don’t know what it will do to my tapering sxs. I don’t need things messed up any more than it already is. Coukdc Make em worse?? Also putting Ambien in me on top of doxepin & mirtazapine may make me very sedated and possibly make my apnea worse, even create central apneas- which when your brain tells your respiration center-don’t breathe.

I’m not crazy about the idea of another sleep study.

That is bad then. I was looking through the lens of maybe finding out if theres anyway to help with your sleep. I dont blame you for hating it now you've said that!

@Sminismoni @Chippy @cherrysquid we are in 100% agreement. I have made the NP aware of the fact I record my sleep data every night and I even shared some of it with her. There’s no further need to prove I have mild to moderate sleep apnea. We know that already. My BIPAP keeps my AHI low, typically below 5 which is the gold std. The question being asked is am I having significant # of central apneas (CA)The daily data I have available & 2 recent sleep studies have shown I get some CAs but not enough, so far to require treatment with ASV. CAs can be induced by PAP therapy. It’s common to get a few.

My concern is if the mirtazapine/doxepin combo causing me to have more of them. I think my daily sleep data will do a better and more accurate tell if I’m have high #s of CAs than a single nights study especially one with another sedating drug hitting my brain.

@Chippy last night I think without a doubt was the worst night of my life. I’ve been awake most of the night feeling absolutely awful. Literally feeling sick. Wanting to die. I took my doses on time. Didn’t miss a dose.

The only reason I can come up with for feeling so terrible is I increased my magnesium glycinate from 50 to 150mg and switched to taking it at bedtime instead of the morning. Would that be enough itself to make me feel so bad.

@Pokey449 May I ask you, if you are bloated, because bloating is causing breathing issues. Now, if you are still on Mirtazapine, it is sedative drug and that's why it is slowing down digestion and probably making bloating worse because of that. This may cause more bloating...

Edited August 6Aug 6 by The Dust

16 hours ago, The Dust said:

unproven and questionable like hyperbolic tapering

Hyperbolic tapering is the first neurobiology-based tapering method, and is based on pharmacological research on how antidepressants affect the brain.

@The Dust no I’m not bloated. Also I concur with @Terry regarding hyperbolic tapering. It’s the only reasonable & science based way to get off these poisons that I’m aware of.

@Pokey449 It's great that your gut is so resistant to survive being on these drugs! It's almost a miracle!

@The Dust oh my gut has issues. I’ve not had a normal BM for some time. You asked if I was bloated which I’m not. I get nausea and diarrhea. Then I’m ok for a bit then the nausea & diarrhea hits me again