9 minutes ago, Pokey449 said:

@The Dust oh my gut has issues. I’ve not had a normal BM for some time. You asked if I was bloated which I’m not. I get nausea and diarrhea. Then I’m ok for a bit then the nausea & diarrhea hits me again

I'm sorry... But at least you don't have bloating! I think nobody is not able to have normal digestion after being in these drug long-term. I don't know, maybe when you finish your tapering, the things will be stabilized. When I quitted everything my lose stools problem did improved immediately.

21 minutes ago, Pokey449 said:

@The Dust oh my gut has issues. I’ve not had a normal BM for some time. You asked if I was bloated which I’m not. I get nausea and diarrhea. Then I’m ok for a bit then the nausea & diarrhea hits me again

@Pokey449 . Those symptoms are part of the WD. I get bloated stomach. I haven't gotten diarrhea for awhile now ...

14 minutes ago, Raymond said:

@Pokey449 . Those symptoms are part of the WD. I get bloated stomach. I haven't gotten diarrhea for awhile now ...

Not necessary. Maybe you have gastritis and or SIBO and diarrhea can be due to altered gut microbiota caused by altered gut motility and because some of these drugs has antimicrobial properties, especially if he is still on drugs.

Everyone looks bloated, but everyone is not in WD.

I don’t think it’s SIBO. Had that before a few years ago and successfully treated it. I know what it looks/feels like. This is different. I do think I have some gastritis & IBS , both of which cause nausea.

@Pokey449 Thanks for sharing this. Actually, I thought about SIBO or gastritis for @Raymond case, because he said he is bloated.

But yeah, nausea and also diarrhea can be due to gastritis and/or IBS?

But now i am curious. How did you successfully treated SIBO? Were you bloated that time? How did it felt?

15 minutes ago, The Dust said:

@Pokey449 Thanks for sharing this. Actually, I thought about SIBO or gastritis for @Raymond case, because he said he is bloated.

But yeah, nausea and also diarrhea can be due to gastritis and/or IBS?

But now i am curious. How did you successfully treated SIBO? Were you bloated that time? How did it felt?

@The Dust ....in my case, my bloated stomach was due to the WD. Paxil affects serotonin in the stomach. It got better and I don't experience this bloating and gass issues every day. It was gone for a while now, but today, it just happened. WD causes these symptoms. Thank God, I did my yearly checkup with doctor and everything is fine...this will eventually goes back to normal. I drink ginger tea and it helps ..

@Raymond Have you been on gastroscopy then?

@The Dust i had a very smart naturopath doc who specializes in treat GI issues. My GI MD gave up on me after taking one stab at treating me. The naturopath put me on RIFAXAMIN, a very $$$$ antibiotic that I ended up getting from a Rx in Canada. Plus I went on a low FODMAP diet which is very limiting in what you can eat. Took probiotics at a specified time in the treatment plan. It took 2 rounds of RIFAXAMIN along with the diet & probiotics to get rids of it. I hope I never get SIBO again.

@Pokey449 Thank you! I am asking you, because I have SIBO story, but it's confused and I don't know if it's still present.

But based on what you suppose that your SIBO is treated? I believe you, don't get me wrong? Did you made a second breath test methane/hydrogen? Or just based on improving your symthoms? Were you less bloated after Rifaximin?

By 2 Rounds you mean 14 day 2 times?

I did a 14 day round. It came back and then I did a 21 day round. Thst with the low FODMAP diet killed all the little bastards in my small gut. I don’t recall if I did a breath test afterwards. Probably did as I recall multiple breath tests.

9 hours ago, Pokey449 said:

The only reason I can come up with for feeling so terrible is I increased my magnesium glycinate from 50 to 150mg and switched to taking it at bedtime instead of the morning.

Hi @Pokey449 I had tried magnesium also and I didn’t really get any relax on it, it made me feel the opposite. The more I wanted to relax the more adrenaline was running through my body. So maybe try and see how do you feel without the magnesium.

54 minutes ago, The Dust said:

@Raymond Have you been on gastroscopy then?

Oh no....I just know that it's WD. I was on surviving antidepressants Group and they had a list of all mimic symptoms that WD creates while healing. I never had this issue before medication. It all happens after trying to come out. This is one symptom that affects everyone on paxil. However, I did a poop test and all came normal.

I personally blame everything on WD.

1 minute ago, Raymond said:

I personally blame everything on WD.

I see...

19 minutes ago, The Dust said:

I see...

High chance a lot of it is, considering where we are. WD f**ks you up, majorly.

20 hours ago, Pokey449 said:

@Chippy last night I think without a doubt was the worst night of my life. I’ve been awake most of the night feeling absolutely awful. Literally feeling sick. Wanting to die. I took my doses on time. Didn’t miss a dose.

The only reason I can come up with for feeling so terrible is I increased my magnesium glycinate from 50 to 150mg and switched to taking it at bedtime instead of the morning. Would that be enough itself to make me feel so bad.

I am so sorry to read mate. I would refrain from taking the higher dose of Magnesium. Slow and slow remember. The nervous system is sensitive. Stick to the 50mg.

14 hours ago, Pokey449 said:

@The Dust oh my gut has issues. I’ve not had a normal BM for some time. You asked if I was bloated which I’m not. I get nausea and diarrhea. Then I’m ok for a bit then the nausea & diarrhea hits me again

This is very common in WD pokey. One of many symptoms we all can get mate.

10 hours ago, cherrysquid said:

High chance a lot of it is, considering where we are. WD f**ks you up, majorly.

And your gut gets massively effected by WD. You can have more than one thing going on whilst being in WD, however the chances are fairly low. occam's razor as I have said before.

5 minutes ago, cherrysquid said:

High chance a lot of it is, considering where we are. WD f**ks you up, majorly.

Yeap ...this is why I see that all the symptoms are consequences of the WD....

15 hours ago, The Dust said:

@Raymond Have you been on gastroscopy then?

No. Never done one.

Ok, let me answer this way.

@Raymond If 20 people from this forum (in WD) with bloating and/or stomach pain go to endoscopy and it reveals they don't have gastritis, I will admit that bloating and stomach pain is probably just because of WD.

Until that happen, I believe that my bloating and stomach pain (and everyone else's) is due gastritis, because it was seen on my gastroscoy 2 times and pathologist-confirmed... Or I will at least stay confused saying I don't know what it is...

I think my point is clear... And don't get me wrong. I think, in general, doctors are useless, have no idea, have urge to give pseudo-psychological diagnosis (it's just anxiety) and it's just waste of time and money...

Edited August 7Aug 7 by The Dust

@Chippy Morning!! I’ve always liked the phrase that “ some days are diamonds, others are stones”. A succinct description of how life can be a struggle between good & bad, up and down. Night before last I got 3 hrs of broken sleep. Last night I got 7+. I got almost 2hrs of REM & an hour plus of deep. Which is great. But I can’t explain what makes the difference? It’s a total mystery to me and I think my sleep medicine providers have no clue what’s going on with my sleep. They have not a clue about sleep fragmentation during WD. They try to make the data fit within the parameters they are familiar with which is limited when one is going through WD. They want to do yet another sleep study on me 😩which I think will be a waste of time. I’m not even sure Horowitz knows what’s happening in my particular case. Being on mirtazapine & doxepin at the same time is very atypical. They are not commonly given together. My psych providers may have set me up for a “black swan” event/situation ?????

I’m probably not making any sense with my rambling m. Just glad I got 7 hrs of sleep last night.

2 hours ago, The Dust said:

Ok, let me answer this way.

@Raymond If 20 people from this forum (in WD) with bloating and/or stomach pain go to endoscopy and it reveals they don't have gastritis, I will admit that bloating and stomach pain is probably just because of WD.

Until that happen, I believe that my bloating and stomach pain (and everyone else's) is due gastritis, because it was seen on my gastroscoy 2 times and pathologist-confirmed... Or I will at least stay confused saying I don't know what it is...

I think my point is clear... And don't get me wrong. I think, in general, doctors are useless, have no idea, have urge to give pseudo-psychological diagnosis (it's just anxiety) and it's just waste of time and money...

Bloating and abdominal pain are symptoms, not diagnoses, and they can result from altered gastrointestinal motility, visceral sensitivity, autonomic nervous system activity and changes in serotonergic signalling — all of which can occur without visible inflammation of the stomach lining.

There's also already clinical evidence that gastrointestinal symptoms occur during antidepressant withdrawal, so we don't need 20 people from one internet forum to undergo invasive endoscopies to establish that withdrawal can cause GI symptoms. An endoscopy also only examines certain structural/mucosal abnormalities; a normal endoscopy doesn't mean gastrointestinal function is normal.

Basically, "my gastritis caused my stomach symptoms" and "withdrawal can cause stomach symptoms without gastritis" can both be true. Your pathology results demonstrate the first in your individual case; they don't disprove the second in everybody else. . Headaches are the obvious analogy: if someone's MRI finds sinusitis while they have headaches, that doesn't mean everyone with a headache must have sinusitis until they've had an MRI

Considering also most serotonin is in the gut it is mostly likely WD especially in Acute WD.

18 minutes ago, Pokey449 said:

@Chippy Morning!! I’ve always liked the phrase that “ some days are diamonds, others are stones”. A succinct description of how life can be a struggle between good & bad, up and down. Night before last I got 3 hrs of broken sleep. Last night I got 7+. I got almost 2hrs of REM & an hour plus of deep. Which is great. But I can’t explain what makes the difference? It’s a total mystery to me and I think my sleep medicine providers have no clue what’s going on with my sleep. They have not a clue about sleep fragmentation during WD. They try to make the data fit within the parameters they are familiar with which is limited when one is going through WD. They want to do yet another sleep study on me 😩which I think will be a waste of time. I’m not even sure Horowitz knows what’s happening in my particular case. Being on mirtazapine & doxepin at the same time is very atypical. They are not commonly given together. My psych providers may have set me up for a “black swan” event/situation ?????

I’m probably not making any sense with my rambling m. Just glad I got 7 hrs of sleep last night.

Great to hear Pokey! May your sleep continue to improve

@cherrysquid In general you are right about specificity and I don't say that my results from gastroscopy explains everything - maybe 20%, 50%, 80%... Who knows... I can only say - it tells me something.

But when it comes to WD symthoms we can say these are even more unspecific and we can't make a conclusion that someone has stomach issues just because 90% of serotonin is in GI tract. Premature conclusion. What is called WD is a set of symthoms. We also know that the same symthom can start when someone is on drug and then persist when he halt the same drug.

Think about probability.

On the other hand, gastritis symthoms are not that unspecific. They are actually relatively specific.

If something looks like a duck, producing voices like a duck and walk like a duck, then it is probably (probably!) a duck.

If someone has stomach pain, (silent) acid reflux and bloating, then it is probably gastritis. Especially because we know that gastritis is very common.

1 hour ago, cherrysquid said:

There's also already clinical evidence that gastrointestinal symptoms occur during antidepressant withdrawal, so we don't need 20 people from one internet forum to undergo invasive endoscopies to establish that withdrawal can cause GI symptoms.

I forget to comment this assumption. This has been written somehow with a tone like we already know enough. Like a lot is already known. It's just the opposite. it's understandable that people have enough and they don't want to spent time and money by visiting doctors being tired of physical pain. But on the other hand, if we want to know more, we need more engagement to rule the things out. Horowitz's receptor occupancy doesn't tell us much. People did MRI scans and nothing was found. Ok, we know something now. That's useful pretty much for someone freshly into WD who is scared about everything...

Edited August 7Aug 7 by The Dust

2 hours ago, Pokey449 said:

@Chippy Morning!! I’ve always liked the phrase that “ some days are diamonds, others are stones”. A succinct description of how life can be a struggle between good & bad, up and down. Night before last I got 3 hrs of broken sleep. Last night I got 7+. I got almost 2hrs of REM & an hour plus of deep. Which is great. But I can’t explain what makes the difference? It’s a total mystery to me and I think my sleep medicine providers have no clue what’s going on with my sleep. They have not a clue about sleep fragmentation during WD. They try to make the data fit within the parameters they are familiar with which is limited when one is going through WD. They want to do yet another sleep study on me 😩which I think will be a waste of time. I’m not even sure Horowitz knows what’s happening in my particular case. Being on mirtazapine & doxepin at the same time is very atypical. They are not commonly given together. My psych providers may have set me up for a “black swan” event/situation ?????

I’m probably not making any sense with my rambling m. Just glad I got 7 hrs of sleep last night.

Pokey I’m so glad you got some good sleep. It is so hard to know why it’s good one night and not the next!

I hope a sleep study can help, I am like you in the camp of feeling like it might be a lot of effort for no gain though. Unfortunately your doctors as you say don’t understand wd and just try to fit your symptoms into a diagnosis they understand.