14 hours ago, Finni said:

Thanks, Chippy 🩵

I think the next thing for me to do is to split my dose since it’s so activating and I feel it so acutely as it’s wearing off in the afternoon and evening.

The question is how far past this last disruption do I need to wait before I try?

I know I’ve asked this question before, but I feel like I’m even more sensitized now.

Another thing- One time Mark said I should take 1 mg earlier and earlier and another time said I could take 3 mg earlier and earlier.

I wonder why the difference?

I think the idea of splitting your dose is a good one and I wouldn't sweat over whether to do it by 1 mg or 3 mg. The idea is to do it gradually, and Mark was probably thinking that it would give your system a chance to adapt and you the ability to reassess. I can see how splitting could potentially smooth out the peaks and troughs and could clue you in more to how much what you are experiencing is from the med itself vs withdrawal, which you've been trying hard to determine. As you know, splitting does not alter your daily dosage, so this would be a single change.

I noticed that you said that you perceive the med "wearing off" into the evening. Is this a recent change or pattern? For a long time, you had described feeling a little better in the evening and that once dosing, then you'd feel "activated" and worse. When I hear "wearing off", I think "interdose withdrawal", but the evening "mini-window" pattern spoke against that.

You asked when you should split. Instead of going by the calendar, I'd go by your system settling a little since your last "disruption". Unfortunately, in your case, I don't think you'll ever find a "perfect" time to make any changes, including splitting.

You've had a horrible relationship with mirtazapine. I'm glad, though, that you have reported that mirt has helped the onset of your sleep. That's good to hear and not a "benefit" that all mirt users enjoy for long, as it tends to fizzle out over a few weeks to a couple months for many. It's never lasted long for me. I suspect that you are extremely sensitive to mirt's mechanism with norepinephrine, and the activation you've reported having on it, and notably when you increased to 22.5 mg align with that. As you are probably aware of, at ~15 mg, there's still a fair amount of interaction with norepinephrine, but at lower dosages, especially <=7.5 mg, there's a shift in mechanism where mirt is more antihistaminic and less adrenergic, which is why mirt typically is more sedating at lower dosages. The reason I'm mentioning all this boring pharmacology is that, looking ahead, I'm really hoping that when you find a way to reduce to this lower dosage, the shift away from norepinephrine "activation" will bring you much-needed relief.

Ultimately, as member @LostinCanada explained a while back, it could come down to deciding which path is the better of the 2 "evils"--withdrawal from reductions or "activation"/"paradoxical reaction" from the mirt itself. I'm hoping if you decide to split at some time, you'll gain some insight as to which is the better path.

Wishing you good luck and relief to come your way soon.

23 minutes ago, Gaucho said:

I think the idea of splitting your dose is a good one and I wouldn't sweat over whether to do it by 1 mg or 3 mg. The idea is to do it gradually, and Mark was probably thinking that it would give your system a chance to adapt and you the ability to reassess. I can see how splitting could potentially smooth out the peaks and troughs and could clue you in more to how much what you are experiencing is from the med itself vs withdrawal, which you've been trying hard to determine. As you know, splitting does not alter your daily dosage, so this would be a single change.

I noticed that you said that you perceive the med "wearing off" into the evening. Is this a recent change or pattern? For a long time, you had described feeling a little better in the evening and that once dosing, then you'd feel "activated" and worse. When I hear "wearing off", I think "interdose withdrawal", but the evening "mini-window" pattern spoke against that.

You asked when you should split. Instead of going by the calendar, I'd go by your system settling a little since your last "disruption". Unfortunately, in your case, I don't think you'll ever find a "perfect" time to make any changes, including splitting.

You've had a horrible relationship with mirtazapine. I'm glad, though, that you have reported that mirt has helped the onset of your sleep. That's good to hear and not a "benefit" that all mirt users enjoy for long, as it tends to fizzle out over a few weeks to a couple months for many. It's never lasted long for me. I suspect that you are extremely sensitive to mirt's mechanism with norepinephrine, and the activation you've reported having on it, and notably when you increased to 22.5 mg align with that. As you are probably aware of, at ~15 mg, there's still a fair amount of interaction with norepinephrine, but at lower dosages, especially <=7.5 mg, there's a shift in mechanism where mirt is more antihistaminic and less adrenergic, which is why mirt typically is more sedating at lower dosages. The reason I'm mentioning all this boring pharmacology is that, looking ahead, I'm really hoping that when you find a way to reduce to this lower dosage, the shift away from norepinephrine "activation" will bring you much-needed relief.

Ultimately, as member @LostinCanada explained a while back, it could come down to deciding which path is the better of the 2 "evils"--withdrawal from reductions or "activation"/"paradoxical reaction" from the mirt itself. I'm hoping if you decide to split at some time, you'll gain some insight as to which is the better path.

Wishing you good luck and relief to come your way soon.

My nervous system is surging so so hard alternating from one day to the next. Today, I feel like I don’t have any mirtazapine in my system at all and I’m having horrible, horrible surges.

Yesterday I felt like I had too much. Sick, floaty, etc

Today I have boring pain in my solar plexus and back with electricity just shooting through me

I was starting to get better before I tried that stupid little tiny reduction and now everything’s horrible again

I’m not just being dramatic, but it feels almost unbearable to the point of not knowing how I’m going to make it through the day

I talk to Adele framer tomorrow

Edited July 28Jul 28 by Finni

2 hours ago, Finni said:

My nervous system is surging so so hard alternating from one day to the next. Today, I feel like I don’t have any mirtazapine in my system at all and I’m having horrible, horrible surges.

Yesterday I felt like I had too much. Sick, floaty, etc

Today I have boring pain in my solar plexus and back with electricity just shooting through me

I was starting to get better before I tried that stupid little tiny reduction and now everything’s horrible again

I’m not just being dramatic, but it feels almost unbearable to the point of not knowing how I’m going to make it through the day

I'm so, so sorry @Finni. I can't imagine how disheartening this is. But if you were starting to recover once then you can absolutely get back there. It's crazy how vulnerable we are in this state, I never would have thought an infection and a couple sleepless nights would have sent me into a wave this bad but here I am. We will get through this even if we have to drag ourselves to that finish line 💜.

30 minutes ago, SarahMc said:

I'm so, so sorry @Finni. I can't imagine how disheartening this is. But if you were starting to recover once then you can absolutely get back there. It's crazy how vulnerable we are in this state, I never would have thought an infection and a couple sleepless nights would have sent me into a wave this bad but here I am. We will get through this even if we have to drag ourselves to that finish line 💜.

🩷🩷

6 hours ago, Finni said:

@Lighty

Have you posted something about mindset on this forum?

@LostinCanada

I fear that my scales might not be weighing right because I feel just like I felt when I tried to reduce my .0002 last week

Last night, I turned my skills on and they’ve been on about 20 or 30 minutes and I filed down a tablet and it weighed .1024 g which is .0002 g below my target weight and so I just thought I would try again and this time they weighed .1026 g and so then I made sure by taking the tablet off and putting it back on and it weighed .1026 g again

But what if the real weight was .1024 g?

I’m in horrible horrible distress today just like I was last week

It feels I’m always saying it feels like I’ve gone cold turkey but man does it really ever feel that way today

Deep pounding electricity through my back feels like it’s in my kidneys , my stomach and my pelvis I’m vibrating super hard

Can hardly think about anything else. It is just overtaking me for most of today.

Sometimes I think I’m doing the opposite sometimes I think I need to actually be going up a tiny bit in my dose

I talked to Adele Framer tomorrow

1 minute ago, Finni said:

@LostinCanada

I fear that my scales might not be weighing right because I feel just like I felt when I tried to reduce my .0002 last week

Last night, I turned my skills on and they’ve been on about 20 or 30 minutes and I filed down a tablet and it weighed .1024 g which is .0002 g below my target weight and so I just thought I would try again and this time they weighed .1026 g and so then I made sure by taking the tablet off and putting it back on and it weighed .1026 g again

But what if the real weight was .1024 g?

I’m in horrible horrible distress today just like I was last week

It feels I’m always saying it feels like I’ve gone cold turkey but man does it really ever feel that way today

Deep pounding electricity through my back feels like it’s in my kidneys , my stomach and my pelvis I’m vibrating super hard

Can hardly think about anything else. It is just overtaking me for most of today.

Sometimes I think I’m doing the opposite sometimes I think I need to actually be going up a tiny bit in my dose

I talked to Adele Framer tomorrow

The longer you leave the scales on the better...I try for ,60 minutes. I always calibrate. It's all we have to work with. This is more accurate than any compounding pharmacy or even the pills from the factory. I hope Adele can help. ❤️🙏

The process isn't easy no matter what and some of us struggle more than others. 😭

I talked to Adele Framer today and she wants me to track symptoms a little differently for 10 days.

She thinks my every other day floaty, extreme vestibular symptoms, weird sick feelings are Mirtazapine.

Has anyone worked with her before?

I know she started surviving antidepressants. I’m just wondering if anyone has had a one-on-one with her.

@Chippy

@LostinCanada

57 minutes ago, Finni said:

I talked to Adele Framer today and she wants me to track symptoms a little differently for 10 days.

She thinks my every other day floaty, extreme vestibular symptoms, weird sick feelings are Mirtazapine.

Has anyone worked with her before?

I know she started surviving antidepressants. I’m just wondering if anyone has had a one-on-one with her.

@Chippy

@LostinCanada

I've never had one on one with her, other than learning almost everything I know from reading her replies. She, in my opinion, is one of the most knowledgeable people regarding WD. Mark Horowitz joined SA and really got his start there by being a member.

She is very intuitive about these drugs and sees things others would often overlook. His did you get in touch with her?

Edited July 29Jul 29 by LostinCanada

27 minutes ago, LostinCanada said:

I've never had one on one with her, other than learning almost everything I know from reading her replies. She, in my opinion, is one of the most knowledgeable people regarding WD. Mark Horowitz joined SA and really got his start there by being a member.

She is very intuitive about these drugs and sees things others would often overlook. His did you get in touch with her?

I found her email Address 😀

Thank you for responding ❣️

She seemed to really want to get to the bottom of this, and was very kind.

She mentioned a doctor that she wants me to try to talk to if I can because he has had a similar experience with mirtazapine himself.

(Daniel Cohrs)

I found his email, or I guess I should say ChatGPT found his email so I’ll probably reach out to him, too.

9 hours ago, Finni said:

I talked to Adele Framer today and she wants me to track symptoms a little differently for 10 days.

She thinks my every other day floaty, extreme vestibular symptoms, weird sick feelings are Mirtazapine.

Has anyone worked with her before?

I know she started surviving antidepressants. I’m just wondering if anyone has had a one-on-one with her.

@Chippy

@LostinCanada

I echo what Lic has said @Finni Adele is the OG and there is not another person on this planet I can think of that could help you more. Basically everything we know is down to her. It is wonderful she is willing to help you.

11 hours ago, Finni said:

I found her email Address 😀

Thank you for responding ❣️

She seemed to really want to get to the bottom of this, and was very kind.

She mentioned a doctor that she wants me to try to talk to if I can because he has had a similar experience with mirtazapine himself.

(Daniel Cohrs)

I found his email, or I guess I should say ChatGPT found his email so I’ll probably reach out to him, too.

It's good you've found these extra resources @Finni

23 hours ago, Finni said:

I talked to Adele Framer today and she wants me to track symptoms a little differently for 10 days.

She thinks my every other day floaty, extreme vestibular symptoms, weird sick feelings are Mirtazapine.

Has anyone worked with her before?

I know she started surviving antidepressants. I’m just wondering if anyone has had a one-on-one with her.

@Chippy

@LostinCanada

Adele Framer as Chippy and others have mentioned is extremely knowledgeable withWD, Adele while on Surviving Antidepressants site, was a wealth of knowledge for me when I was going through WD and didn't understand much. She made me realize and understand that this was not just me it's the meds we were tapering off and the understanding of the many symptoms we may face, and coping skills. You are truly lucky to have the chance to speak with her. Knowledge is power

This sounds amazing @Finni .

If you can share some of what you learn from Adele in regards sensitisation that would be great.

8 hours ago, Tracey said:

This sounds amazing @Finni .

If you can share some of what you learn from Adele in regards sensitisation that would be great.

I’m keeping good records for 10 days and talk to her again in August

I’ll keep you updated!

I’m so much worse oh my gosh, it’s terrifying. Pounding electricity and feeling spongy and like I’m in a nightmare.

Vestibular symptoms are over the top.

Horrible dark thoughts that don’t feel like me at all. I’m afraid I’m going to end up not alive.

What if Adele thinks I need to keep tapering and I can’t make it?

@LostinCanada

Dear @Finni

Try to remind yourself that your thoughts and feelings aren't facts. Everything you are going through is because of this awful drug. I am really hoping you can get some clarity from Adele. You just need to get through this minute. What we go through is beyond imagining.

Remember that you don't have to do anything you don't feel comfortable with.

Try to distract if you can, I know it is easier said than done. ❤️

I’m sorry @Finni 💜. All of us feel so hopeless at times, but if you believe the rest of us can make it then you can make it too. Thinking of you.

Finni, I'm sorry to hear that you are going through this wave, distract as much as your able to when you're having those dark thoughts, I had one that was 3 days long, and as long as I kept busy/distracted it lost it's grip on me, and of course call or talk to someone who makes you comfortable. My sister was my guiding angel, she had this calming voice that soothed me to get past the worst. Remember, there NOT your thoughts, it's the medication. You are gonna get through this my friend, we are all here for you. As I say a prayer to the Lord our God, please guide us, give us strength at our weakest and carry us through to a glorious window of relief. You are so very strong Finni and you will get through this. Sending a virtual hug🤗

18 hours ago, Finni said:

I’m keeping good records for 10 days and talk to her again in August

I’ll keep you updated!

So sorry you are in this nightmare. Me too so sending you calm, peace and strength. We have to get through like so many others do. xxxx

Sending some love @Finni Have you spoken to Adele already then?

Feeling for you @Finni hopefully the wave will pass. I don't think Adele will ask you to push through if you're not up to it. Take care 🤗

5 hours ago, Chippy said:

Sending some love @Finni Have you spoken to Adele already then?

Yes

And she connected me with Daniel Cohrs, MD

When I’m up to it, I will tell you guys what he said about sensitization and mirtazapine.

He’s on it himself and having a time.

He’s functional and working though

18 hours ago, Bernadette said:

Finni, I'm sorry to hear that you are going through this wave, distract as much as your able to when you're having those dark thoughts, I had one that was 3 days long, and as long as I kept busy/distracted it lost it's grip on me, and of course call or talk to someone who makes you comfortable. My sister was my guiding angel, she had this calming voice that soothed me to get past the worst. Remember, there NOT your thoughts, it's the medication. You are gonna get through this my friend, we are all here for you. As I say a prayer to the Lord our God, please guide us, give us strength at our weakest and carry us through to a glorious window of relief. You are so very strong Finni and you will get through this. Sending a virtual hug🤗

My sister came to stay with me 😇

🩷🩷

18 minutes ago, Finni said:

My sister came to stay with me 😇

🩷🩷

I'm so happy to hear your sister is with you, talk it out with her, keep distracted as best to your ability, if you can , get out in nature for a brief walk. I would a lot of time walk barefoot in the grass, or simply sit in the grass, it's good grounding technique. I have and still do sip on chamomile tea, its calming to me and helps with upset stomach. I eat berries, blueberries, raspberries, strawberries, some pineapple. I'll snack on almonds, walnuts. Enjoy your time with your sister and again my friend you will get through this wave. I know it's easier said than done, but during a wave, let the feelings be present, and let it exit, do not fight it, otherwise it takes control. Trust me my friend it's a hard thing to learn but once I've learned how to do this it lost it's grip on me, and now I'm the one incontrol. You are so very strong and you will get through this. Hugs for now xxxx Bernadette